Would you pay fighters directly rather than the UFC?

[elwani]

I think a lot more people hit up the PirateBay the day after so they can avoid the WMMA and FLW division fights and cut directly to the fights they want to watch. Not saying I do that or anything, but...

Don't look at me like that! I pay for my Fightpass!

One question is would those people, even though they aren't paying $60 for the PPV, be willing to tip a few bucks to the fighters for the fights?

 

[IsNormal]

I wouldn't wanna donate to specific fighters, cause it would be too much of a hassle to pick my favorites.
But if there was a website with a "donate to all fighters on this card" button, that would create a pool of money and split it fairly between Patreons of all fighters on the card, then I might use it once in a while.
But I would probably never be able to trust that something like that was legit and not skimming money off the top.

One question is would those people, even though they aren't paying $60 for the PPV, be willing to tip a few bucks to the fighters for the fights?

I've always found this topic very interesting.
During the heydays of PirateBay I remember that a lot of pirates were saying that they wouldn't mind paying minor artists directly, but they didn't wanna fund rich artists and greedy record labels.

One of the guys from PirateBay actually launched a donation based thing called Flattr in 2010. (Monthly donations which were basically split between all businesses which used Flattr) When it didn't really take off I assumed that donations would never really become a thing, and people didn't really care about the creators - they mainly wanted free content with as little hassle as possible.

But then stuff like crowdfunding, Patreon and Humble Bundle came along I figured it seems to have turned around.

Seems to me though that the willingness and practicality of donations are highly dependant on which type of business we're talking.
(I assume Patreon has taken off cause it's used by content creators like youtubers who create hours of content on a monthly basis - which make fans feel like they get a lot of value for money and a tight relationship with the product.
Might be harder for fighters who just appear in the ring few minutes per year)

 

[elwani]

I've always found this topic very interesting.
During the heydays of PirateBay I remember that a lot of pirates were saying that they wouldn't mind paying minor artists directly, but they didn't wanna fund rich artists and greedy record labels.

One of the guys from PirateBay actually launched a donation based thing called Flattr in 2010. (Monthly donations which were basically split between all businesses which used Flattr)
When it didn't really take off I assumed that donations would never really become a thing.

But then stuff like crowdfunding, Patreon and Humble Bundle came along I figured it seems to have turned around.

But overall it seems to me that the willingness and feasibility of donations seems very dependant on which kind of product is at stake.

Now that I think more about it, human nature is probably just that most will not pay unless they have to, even if they feel it is the right thing to do.

With stuff like Patreon, they are still getting something that they wouldn't otherwise get if they didn't pay.

 

[Joshy6442]

this would just incentivize the ufc to pay the fighters even less

it'd be like tipping at a restaurant - now the consumers are directly bearing the cost of employee salary while the employees themselves are making no more money than they already do. Also, this idea would be especially detrimental for no name fighters trying to make it to the top.

 

[elwani]

this would just incentivize the ufc to pay the fighters even less

it'd be like tipping at a restaurant - now the consumers are directly bearing the cost of employee salary while the employees themselves are making no more money than they already do. Also, this idea would be especially detrimental for no name fighters trying to make it to the top.

Actually I'm not sure how it would play out or whether it would play out like you think.

For example, if such a platform actually did exist and people used it, do you think most of the tips would be going to the big name fighters? It might not be so, because people might feel the big stars were already getting paid enough.

Also I agree that just like restaurants, UFC might use it as an excuse to pay some fighters less. But the UFC already pays some fighters very little, like 10K/10K, could they make more from just the platform even then? It's just like some restaurant workers not wanting tips to be abolished and their wages increased, it is because they feel they can make more from tips.

Also it might incentivize some fighters, especially lower card fighters, to put on great fights. No doubt they will get a lot of tips if they put on an exciting performance.

 

[Joshy6442]

Actually I'm not sure how it would play out or whether it would play out like you think.

For example, if such a platform actually did exist and people used it, do you think most of the tips would be going to the big name fighters? It might not be so, because people might feel the big stars were already getting paid enough.

Also I agree that just like restaurants, UFC might use it as an excuse to pay some fighters less. But the UFC already pays some fighters very little, like 10K/10K, could they make more from just the platform even then? It's just like some restaurant workers not wanting tips to be abolished and their wages increased, it is because they feel they can make more from tips.

Also it might incentivize some fighters, especially lower card fighters, to put on great fights. No doubt they will get a lot of tips if they put on an exciting performance.

Disagree

Let's say avg ppv buys are around 500k. Now let's VERY generously say 10% of ppv buyers will donate (if this were the case, it'd never be remotely close to 10% but im using the figure for emphasis).

Realistically, average donations would be around $3-$4. That means there'd be around $150,000 - $200,000 in donation money between 24 fighters, with a heavy bias towards the top fighters, leaving the bottom tier fighters essentially nothing. And since the ufc has 0 integrity or credibility whatsoever, I think it's a safe bet to assume that they'd use the excuse of "hey if you put on great fights, people should hypothetically donate to you, so we're slashing your pay and in the meantime, let's scrap finish and fotn bonuses using the same string of reasoning."

I think in this scenario, the fighters end up even poorer than they are.

 

[elwani]

Disagree

Let's say avg ppv buys are around 500k. Now let's VERY generously say 10% of ppv buyers will donate (if this were the case, it'd never be remotely close to 10% but im using the figure for emphasis).

Realistically, average donations would be around $3-$4. That means there'd be around $150,000 - $200,000 in donation money between 24 fighters, with a heavy bias towards the top fighters, leaving the bottom tier fighters essentially nothing. And since the ufc has 0 integrity or credibility whatsoever, I think it's a safe bet to assume that they'd use the excuse of "hey if you put on great fights, people should hypothetically donate to you, so we're slashing your pay and in the meantime, let's scrap finish and fotn bonuses using the same string of reasoning."

I think in this scenario, the fighters end up even poorer than they are.

It's hard to refute the UFC's complete lack of integrity and credibility.

 

[MMAart]

Serious question. I see a lot of people say that they purchase PPVs because they want to support the fighters. I like the sentiment but 90% of every dollar you spend this way goes to Dana and WME rather than the fighters.

The question is, suppose for every card there was a way to support the fighters directly. You can contribute however much you want, even just a dollar or two, and you're sure that all of it goes to the fighter. Would you do it? Or does it feel too much like charity to you (it's not since the fighters are providing a service)?

Definitely without a doubt!

 

[POWER2]

Serious question. I see a lot of people say that they purchase PPVs because they want to support the fighters. I like the sentiment but 90% of every dollar you spend this way goes to Dana and WME rather than the fighters.

The question is, suppose for every card there was a way to support the fighters directly. You can contribute however much you want, even just a dollar or two, and you're sure that all of it goes to the fighter. Would you do it? Or does it feel too much like charity to you (it's not since the fighters are providing a service)?

i don't have a way of paying the 3,000 fighters who appear on each 6 hour event. LOL

 

[elwani]

I wouldn't wanna donate to specific fighters, cause it would be too much of a hassle to pick my favorites.
But if there was a website with a "donate to all fighters on this card" button, that would create a pool of money and split it fairly between Patreons of all fighters on the card, then I might use it once in a while.
But I would probably never be able to trust that something like that was legit and not skimming money off the top.
I've always found this topic very interesting.
During the heydays of PirateBay I remember that a lot of pirates were saying that they wouldn't mind paying minor artists directly, but they didn't wanna fund rich artists and greedy record labels.

One of the guys from PirateBay actually launched a donation based thing called Flattr in 2010. (Monthly donations which were basically split between all businesses which used Flattr) When it didn't really take off I assumed that donations would never really become a thing, and people didn't really care about the creators - they mainly wanted free content with as little hassle as possible.

But then stuff like crowdfunding, Patreon and Humble Bundle came along I figured it seems to have turned around.

Seems to me though that the willingness and practicality of donations are highly dependant on which type of business we're talking.
(I assume Patreon has taken off cause it's used widely by content creators who create hours of contents, so fans get a lot of value for money. Might be harder for fighters who just appear in the ring few minutes per year)

Flattr is a very interesting idea. They remove the act of having to explicitly make a donation to a specific party and just auto-distribute it based on usage. I wonder if this actually makes people more likely to donate, by removing the conscious act and work of donating.

Trust is also an interesting technical question. Suppose your intentions are honest, how would you prove to your users that the money was actually distributed? Would one way be to make the logs of donations publicly viewable in real time so that someone motivated can keep track of the donations that were made, and then they can always ask a fighter whether they received the total amount?

An extreme way might be to make it a cryptocurrency contract so that the log of donations is always available and trustworthy, but then how many people really use cryptocurrency and are also MMA fans?

 

[jeff7b9]

If it was done right with the right circumstances then sure.

For example- if some tech savvy hustler MMA fan set up an HQ stream for $20, kept half for his trouble and gave the other half to the fighters on the card who have patreon or twitch or whatever,
I would do that.

$20 is about what a PPV is worth to me. $10 going to the fighters would be more than the 8-12% of $60 that UFC pays.

And also, of course, fuck the UFC they can eat a big old bag of dicks. if their business model wasn't based off of ripping off american and fucking over their fighters and fans I might give a fuck.

And for you UFC white-knights don't worry, I have paid the UFC plenty of money, I bought every PPV for years, now I buy 2-3 a year that I consider worth it but at $69.99 it better be a DAMN FUCKING AMAZING STACKED CARD.

 

[Fluffernutter]

GoFundMe should be established by each fighter after weigh ins.

 

[Evangelion]

Yes and no. Technically no. But it's like if a single fighter does it, it feels kind of like they're asking for a handout, and it would be a lot of work for them to publicize it, which also probably feels degrading.

But I feel like if it was organized, on a per card basis for example, and the principle was clearly annunciated that this is not charity, this is just the customers choosing to pay the people who are doing most of the work directly rather having 9/10 of their money go to the middleman (Dana and WME), it would work a lot better.

The issue with this is the no name fighters are going to make absolutely nothing

 

[Barteh]

Yes cut out the middle man.

Without the middle man we wouldn't have the best fighters in the world all fighting each other in one organization. I'm a fan and I want to see the best fighters in the world competing against each other. What a dumb idea.

 

[elwani]

If it was done right with the right circumstances then sure.

For example- if some tech savvy hustler MMA fan set up an HQ stream for $20, kept half for his trouble and gave the other half to the fighters on the card who have patreon or twitch or whatever,
I would do that.

Woah, no one is suggesting that, that would be blatantly illegal and strong grounds for getting sued.

I guess realistically I'm thinking, there's probably a bunch of people who stream and don't pay anything for the events. They don't want to pay as much as $70 and they don't want 90% of what they pay to go to the UFC. But they might still be willing to pay a buck or two to the fighters for the service they provide if it was easy to do so and they knew all that money goes to the fighters.

I guess I'm wondering if any such people exist.

 

[Damon3388]

No.

That’s why I’m encouraging you and similar people to show the big boys how you can pay several multiples of the market rate for labor and still dominate the market.

It’s bizarre no one with say...Mark Cuban or Donald Trump money has stepped in to fill that gap and failure yet.

After all, all they need to do is lay and chill in their office and exploit fighters to be successful right?

Because even if you are rich, it actually takes a lot of work and initial capital and risk, and (short of every UFC fighter being a free agent and "gettable"), even then there's big odds that it'll be a failure and money sink.

Guys like Cuban and Trump got and stayed rich by not taking stupid risks with their money once they had it.

 

[Damon3388]

Woah, no one is suggesting that, that would be blatantly illegal and strong grounds for getting sued.

I guess realistically I'm thinking, there's probably a bunch of people who stream and don't pay anything for the events. They don't want to pay as much as $70 and they don't want 90% of what they pay to go to the UFC. But they might still be willing to pay a buck or two to the fighters for the service they provide if it was easy to do so and they knew all that money goes to the fighters.

I guess I'm wondering if any such people exist.

I'd say the majority of people don't really give that much of a shit about fighter pay, and just want to see the fights, and if they can do that for free or at little cost, they will.

 

[Zabit 145 Goat]

It would be cool if the PPVs were cheaper and they had like a donate feature on YouTube during the fighter's post fight interview where you could donate $$ for their performance.

 

[FrankieNYC]

Yes, I agree that infrastructure, marketing, etc. has value, but 90% of the value? In the NFL players are guaranteed 47% of the revenue, NBA 49-51%, NHL 50%. What I take exception to is Dana and WME screwing the fighters so bad.

The Schaub link in OP is BS (not TS fault)
UFC legal filings had 13% of rev in 2015 & 17% of rev in 2016.
Obviously very low, but Schaub is a dolt when it comes to financial info

A good way to judge UFC is profit vs fighter pay
In 2015, UFC made $152m profit and paid $80m to fighters
In 2016 it was about $220m in profit & $120m to fighters (better but not where it should be)
2017 is screwed bc MayMac

Some feel that a fair situation would be a similarity between UFC profit & fighter pay.

UFC is built differently than NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, so a direct comparison is off

But obv they could & should pay more

 

[FrankieNYC]

How about actually paying for the UFC material that you consume instead of streaming and pretending like you aren’t doing it for selfish reasons?

Smart fighters make a lot through online sponsorship & appearances.
They can earn if the put in the effort

A Patreon would be interesting though
A fighter can do things like a weekly members only podcast, phone call, etc