wonderboy and kata for MMA

[JohnPJones]

yep, some sherdog clickbait lol

 

[listrahtes]

God the gi are such a crime with these stupid stickers on them. Worst trend ever in TMA.

Regarding Thompson. He is more of a kickboxer than a Karateka in his MMA fights.

I like Kata but not because they are practical. They teach you absolutely nothing beyond looking fancy.
It was just a way to collect and remember techniques in an age were even books were very rare. Kind of like a book collection.

 

[JohnPJones]

God the gi are such a crime with these stupid stickers on them. Worst trend ever in TMA.

Regarding Thompson. He is more of a kickboxer than a Karateka in his MMA fights.

I like Kata but not because they are practical. They teach you absolutely nothing beyond looking fancy.
It was just a way to collect and remember techniques in an age were even books were very rare. Kind of like a book collection.

you do know the history and origins of kickboxing in the US and japan right?

 

[shincheckin]

kata compared to shadowboxing has been discussed on here before, comparing kata to scripted shadow boxing.
Drilling/repeating things is beneficial, regardless if its kata, shadow boxing, bag, or pads. Repetition is what creates the muscle memory.
But we must remember, no philosophy no karate, there was no philosophy in this video. So I dont think we can even call this a kata. More like techniques demonstrated by karateka. Thus the people in this video that were able to repeat this kata, have not learned karate or a kata at all, they are merely repeating movements demonstrated by karateka.
additionally, the movements of this kata, are so complex, it is impossible for anyone to learn this kata, simply by watching this youtube tutorial video.
I mean learning MMA/MT/KB/Boxing techniques off a youtube tutorial video is possible, but kata from a tutorial video is impossible.

 

[StanClarker]

kata compared to shadowboxing has been discussed on here before, comparing kata to scripted shadow boxing.
Drilling/repeating things is beneficial, regardless if its kata, shadow boxing, bag, or pads. Repetition is what creates the muscle memory.
But we must remember, no philosophy no karate, there was no philosophy in this video. So I dont think we can even call this a kata. More like techniques demonstrated by karateka. Thus the people in this video that were able to repeat this kata, have not learned karate or a kata at all, they are merely repeating movements demonstrated by karateka.
additionally, the movements of this kata, are so complex, it is impossible for anyone to learn this kata, simply by watching this youtube tutorial video.
I mean learning MMA/MT/KB/Boxing techniques off a youtube tutorial video is possible, but kata from a tutorial video is impossible.

I was talking about the gi patches... common convention, particularly with MMA. Thompson dressed for success.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

God the gi are such a crime with these stupid stickers on them. Worst trend ever in TMA.

Have you seen the typical bjj gi before?

 

[listrahtes]

Have you seen the typical bjj gi before?

I`d like to opt for going blind seing this.

Imo American TMA and BJJ started this trend.

It is like buying a brioni suit and put Ed Hardy stickers on it.

 

[shincheckin]

lol this is funny, I see what you guys mean, I never payed attention to it before but yeah patches all over the GI looks kinda lame, I suppose during grappling some of those patches could pose a risk.......similar to how they make sure they laces are covered well on boxing gloves before fights. In BJJ guys defense, most of them dont wear gis, instead they were "skull and wing" affliction style rash guards and board shorts.

 

[JohnPJones]

lol love how this turned into a discussion about patches on gis.

i agree it looks retarded. unless you're sponsored by the peoples' patches you're wearing i don't see any reason to have more than 1 patch, for the place where you train on a gi...now if you're making money from wearing patches, then by all means i won't shit on you for hustling.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Here is my thoughts on kata at the moment, I've spoken about kata many times and my opinion often changes. Generally I say 'sure why not' I can see what it can be useful - but I also think that kata without bunkai is useless (though take that with a grain of salt) but I also wonder if bunkai as a concept makes kata irrelevant.

Would be interested for someone with a pyjama pants background to give their thoughts - because I approach everything from a full contact mindset

 

[JohnPJones]

Here is my thoughts on kata at the moment, I've spoken about kata many times and my opinion often changes. Generally I say 'sure why not' I can see what it can be useful - but I also think that kata without bunkai is useless (though take that with a grain of salt) but I also wonder if bunkai as a concept makes kata irrelevant.

Would be interested for someone with a pyjama pants background to give their thoughts - because I approach everything from a full contact mindset

bunkai doesn't invalidate kata practice, maybe you're thinking more about kihon practice? bunkai practice is either a two man drill of the kata itself or just the breaking down of techniques in the kata and practicing with a partner.
kihon is the static punching and kicking etc but kihon is only the basics so neither really invalidates kata.

i wish i had kept up with my kata practice while i was in the navy, but spent nearly 3/4 of my enlistment away from home port working my ass off lol.

aside from the benefits of mental health i do think it is beneficial to train and practice even for full contact sport.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

bunkai doesn't invalidate kata practice, maybe you're thinking more about kihon practice? bunkai practice is either a two man drill of the kata itself or just the breaking down of techniques in the kata and practicing with a partner.
kihon is the static punching and kicking etc but kihon is only the basics so neither really invalidates kata.

i wish i had kept up with my kata practice while i was in the navy, but spent nearly 3/4 of my enlistment away from home port working my ass off lol.

aside from the benefits of mental health i do think it is beneficial to train and practice even for full contact sport.

Yeah bunkai is what I was thinking of, in that it took a kata and drilled the application.

What do you think of Ashihara kata, which is more like scripted shadowboxing:

 

[StanClarker]

Three minutes in,,, Round # 1 Ronda's garage.
Now 6 minutes in, Round #2 Ronda's garage.
At 7 minutes... holding my tongue....

I'm gonna call it a 3 rounder... so Ronda has it by Round #2...

Look guys, I'm basic, no-nothing in boxing... but here's my Boxing Philosophy Kata for MMA.
BOXING FOOTWORK- FEINTING WITH THE FEET
4,575 views
•Jun 14, 2018


cary williams

The feinting is an extra feature I just wanted a short clip since there's extensive boxing training threads here @ TSF.

This is tough, IMO. Heavy bag is a plus for those who benefit from contact training...

P.S. How's that Aikido guy doin' on his MMA transition footwork? Me, don't wanna know.

 

[listrahtes]

lol love how this turned into a discussion about patches on gis.

Yeah sorry my responsibility for derailing the thread. I have a Karate / Judo background and we never had these stickers and no Karate org in Japan have them nowadays as far as I know.

Others have described why this goes directly against the core of japanese TMA.

you do know the history and origins of kickboxing in the US and japan right?

I do. And? It originates in parts in Karate. Still it has developed into a different ma were fights play out different. Just watch Karate fights nowadays in Japan and then KB fights. Thompson is more of a KB fighter.

But if you see that different I have no problem with it. No matter his fighting origin he is a great inspiration and has a unique impressive skillset.

 

[CFGroup]

Here is my thoughts on kata at the moment, I've spoken about kata many times and my opinion often changes. Generally I say 'sure why not' I can see what it can be useful - but I also think that kata without bunkai is useless (though take that with a grain of salt) but I also wonder if bunkai as a concept makes kata irrelevant.

Would be interested for someone with a pyjama pants background to give their thoughts - because I approach everything from a full contact mindset

Kata done with a non McDojo American mindset is like shadow boxing for full contact. IMO that video is a Orange belt display at best. I scrolled through the clip to see any example of a Dan rank do it at "fighting speed and application" meaning you'd eliminate all those long stances and exaggerated blocks, to short, highly mobile "abbreviated" movements like you refine in shadow boxing.

That's my take, if you're going to train Kata work it slow for accuracy, medium for fluidity and elasticity-learning how to plant the feet and twist the hips to generate power with balance-and fast as fuck, with maximum power, short "at fighting speed" footwork, like you would shadow box. Doing the lumbering, low stance will build strength and power, but not mobility and speed, when all four are what is "effective".

As to Judo Kata, my old chief instructor was a staunch advocate of all eight Kata.

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/02/

When you have two practitioners experienced in competitive Randori, the intensity of Kata drilling mimics the power and mechanics in full resistance. It builds technical precision that is almost impossible to learn in full resistance, but translates very effectively in full resistance. American Judo doesn't focus as much, but America doesn't rank very well in international Judo. If you have any questions about a fuller range of Judo/Jujitsu training you can always contact Kokushi Institute.

"The philosophy and technical lineage of our school traces directly to Kano Sensei and Aida Sensei. Other renowned martial arts masters also played a major role in shaping our school today. Masutatsu Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate, taught Noboyushi karate and developed him to black belt in the discipline. Kenji Tomiki, the founder of Tomiki Aikido, also taught Nobuyoshi and promoted him to black belt"

https://www.kokushibudo.com/

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Kata done with a non McDojo American mindset is like shadow boxing for full contact. IMO that video is a Orange belt display at best. I scrolled through the clip to see any example of a Dan rank do it at "fighting speed and application" meaning you'd eliminate all those long stances and exaggerated blocks, to short, highly mobile "abbreviated" movements like you refine in shadow boxing.

That's my take, if you're going to train Kata work it slow for accuracy, medium for fluidity and elasticity-learning how to plant the feet and twist the hips to generate power with balance-and fast as fuck, with maximum power, short "at fighting speed" footwork, like you would shadow box. Doing the lumbering, low stance will build strength and power, but not mobility and speed, when all four are what is "effective".

As to Judo Kata, my old chief instructor was a staunch advocate of all eight Kata.

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/02/

When you have two practitioners experienced in competitive Randori, the intensity of Kata drilling mimics the power and mechanics in full resistance. It builds technical precision that is almost impossible to learn in full resistance, but translates very effectively in full resistance. American Judo doesn't focus as much, but America doesn't rank very well in international Judo. If you have any questions about a fuller range of Judo/Jujitsu training you can always contact Kokushi Institute.

"The philosophy and technical lineage of our school traces directly to Kano Sensei and Aida Sensei. Other renowned martial arts masters also played a major role in shaping our school today. Masutatsu Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate, taught Noboyushi karate and developed him to black belt in the discipline. Kenji Tomiki, the founder of Tomiki Aikido, also taught Nobuyoshi and promoted him to black belt"

https://www.kokushibudo.com/

I've heard kata is like shadowboxing before, but I think the difference is that shadowboxing is free form, and kata doesn't seem to be. Most of the kyokushin fighters I've seen training shadowbox over kata (though iknow they have kata)
Is judo kata more like shadow wrestling?

 

[$uperman]

From when I was 5 years old till I was 13 years old I did Karate.

So, I have done a lot of Kata's.

I think that they are a waste of time.

 

[CFGroup]

I've heard kata is like shadowboxing before, but I think the difference is that shadowboxing is free form, and kata doesn't seem to be. Most of the kyokushin fighters I've seen training shadowbox over kata (though iknow they have kata)
Is judo kata more like shadow wrestling?

Real quick cause it's a crazy day. Still have strength training before work....
If you have the right training environment eventually the "Kata" become pieces like a puzzle you're supposed to internalize than "artistically" reconfigure and blend just like you'd do shadow boxing/Kickboxing, hence the term Martial "Arts". Boxing has how many punches, footwork and defensive/offensive movements? Right, you learn those and then put them into free flowing "shadow boxing" I'm in my fourth month of exclusive "shadow Uchikomi" blending gripping, unbalancing and throwing free form since classes have been cancelled(that's what I was doing until now) as part of my training.

I keep seeing Sench talk about heavy bag, shadow and light sparring being almost if not better than gym war, full out sparring every session. Elaborate on that for me....The same principle works for standing grappling-kinda difficult for BJJ guys but that's why I think Judo's better-training. I won't be 100% back on the mat, only 80%, but I sure as shit will be all healed up from getting tossed four days a week!

So yeah, break all the gripping, footwork unbalancing and throwing parts down and slowly methodically build them back up to "at competition speed" and you can develop razor sharp technique that will transfer over to ugly full residence application. And you really can kick your own ass, hard as shit workout all on your own....

 

[Azam]

God the gi are such a crime with these stupid stickers on them. Worst trend ever in TMA.

Regarding Thompson. He is more of a kickboxer than a Karateka in his MMA fights.

I like Kata but not because they are practical. They teach you absolutely nothing beyond looking fancy.
It was just a way to collect and remember techniques in an age were even books were very rare. Kind of like a book collection.

I disagree with that. Depends on the kata and whether your Karate instructor is worth his/her salt.

If you instructor isn't particularly good you'll learn nothing beyond looking fancy - if he/she is good you'll learn what you're suppose to.

I'd argue that kata are actually important especially for beginners as they introduce karate techniques - more so how you transition into and out of techniques.

They're good at teaching fundamentals for example how to use your weight/footwork when punching moving forward. Sounds simple enough for us - but I'm sure we've all seen beginners struggle with something as simple as that.

It is a way to collect/remember techniques but it's also a record of how to transition into/out of techniques and how to apply certain techniques.

What books can't teach you is a feel for the techniques - physically kata does. They are a great method of recording techniques imo provided the person learning them knows what they are for. They are rigid but I think this is done on purpose - so that the person learning it doesn't add his own flair to the transition/techniques until they've been learnt. It also stops practitioners from adding their own flavour to a kata - so as not to dilute the techniques/transitions (i.e. leave it untainted so that the next person in the chain can add their own flair instead of inherit one).

Apart from that yes gi with loads of logos/designs look trashy.

I'd say Thompson is reminiscent of PKA karate than kickboxing.

kata compared to shadowboxing has been discussed on here before, comparing kata to scripted shadow boxing.
Drilling/repeating things is beneficial, regardless if its kata, shadow boxing, bag, or pads. Repetition is what creates the muscle memory.
But we must remember, no philosophy no karate, there was no philosophy in this video. So I dont think we can even call this a kata. More like techniques demonstrated by karateka. Thus the people in this video that were able to repeat this kata, have not learned karate or a kata at all, they are merely repeating movements demonstrated by karateka.
additionally, the movements of this kata, are so complex, it is impossible for anyone to learn this kata, simply by watching this youtube tutorial video.
I mean learning MMA/MT/KB/Boxing techniques off a youtube tutorial video is possible, but kata from a tutorial video is impossible.

Are you still salty bro lol?
It was ages ago....

 

[genecop]

As a kid, I used to hate performing Kata..