Crime Woke garbage inserted into missing children case in Canada

[Stump]

I’m not just talking about the bronze age, I’m talking about all of human history up until relatively recently.

Obviously not. I used the bronze age as a singular example. Surely you know that I don't think you were only talking about the Bronze age? What a strange response.

I’m from the Balkans, do you think the Turks should be apologizing to me for the ottoman empire’s conquest from a few centuries ago? What about the Astro Hungarian Empire which was even more recent? Where do we draw this imaginary line in your opinion?

As I said, I don't make any claim about where this imaginary line should be, and dont believe there is a line, but instead that there is something like a concept moral historical recency. What's the alternative? Everything is up for grabs because the Ottomans invaded Bulgaria in the 1400s?


I would put the same question to you, where is the line? I think the example of Canada is one where the government acknowledging its colonial roots is overall a good thing - it comes with a huge amount of bullshit and grandstanding and people being disengenuous or performative about the whole thing and that sucks, but it's overall a good thing to keep it in the public consciousness that this happened and that Canadians live with the downstream social consequences of this having happened. Canada signed treaties with First Nations - largely these were bullshit and intended to be ignored but they were signed and Canada is in the process of ratifying those treaties today. This is an ugly process, with many lawyers getting rich for virtually no progress. But, it's better than outright empire and colonialism. The land acknowledgements are, when they arent bullshit, a goodfaith effort to keep these comitments as well as the unjust treatment of Indigenous peoples in the public eye. I can see the silliness of it, and how these can be cynically misused but I am on board with the overall intention and think it averages out to a good thing.

 

[TUFNewb]

It was a thing there too for sure, might still be a thing.

Fair enough. I think doing it in school here in there is not a big deal. Doesn't need to be every single time a public statement is made, or in everyone's email signature, like in Canada though. Overkill and cringe.

It starts to plant the idea in children's heads that they're on stolen land

Uhh lady, that's your country's history though. Your nation was built by genocidal slave owners. Teach history to your kids even if it makes you uncomfortable. Or be like Japan and don't I guess. Lady sounds dumb as hell "Muh heckin Israel tho can't acknowledge past sins or the HamAss will use it as a talking point and start murdering infants here!". Okay?

 

[Lycandroid]

I’ve got better things to do than discuss politics with you toxic dorks. It’s no longer interesting now that the election is history

lol wise move, this guy thinks I am your alt account because of the join dates or something, I wonder if he has a substance abuse problem.

 

[Koro_11]

Obviously not. I used the bronze age as a singular example. Surely you know that I don't think you were only talking about the Bronze age? What a strange response.


As I said, I don't make any claim about where this imaginary line should be, and dont believe there is a line, but instead that there is something like a concept moral historical recency. What's the alternative? Everything is up for grabs because the Ottomans invaded Bulgaria in the 1400s?


I would put the same question to you, where is the line? I think the example of Canada is one where the government acknowledging its colonial roots is overall a good thing - it comes with a huge amount of bullshit and grandstanding and people being disengenuous or performative about the whole thing and that sucks, but it's overall a good thing to keep it in the public consciousness that this happened and that Canadians live with the downstream social consequences of this having happened. Canada signed treaties with First Nations - largely these were bullshit and intended to be ignored but they were signed and Canada is in the process of ratifying those treaties today. This is an ugly process, with many lawyers getting rich for virtually no progress. But, it's better than outright empire and colonialism. The land acknowledgements are, when they arent bullshit, a goodfaith effort to keep these comitments as well as the unjust treatment of Indigenous peoples in the public eye. I can see the silliness of it, and how these can be cynically misused but I am on board with the overall intention and think it averages out to a good thing.

Well, I guess there are three options and those are:

Option 1. - do what they’re doing now and draw the line at the exact moment when white Europeans conquered the indigenous tribes, pretend this was some unique thing in history and ignore all other similar events.

Option 2. - Be consistent and have a never ending line, make every group of people go through this struggle session on every slab of land on earth. Have Canadians do a land acknowledgement for taking whatever land they’re standing on from whatever tribe, then have that tribe do their own land acknowledgement for taking it from whichever tribe inhabited it before them, and so on.

Option 3. - Have no line at all, no one does the stupid acknowledgments, teach what happened in history class as you do every other historical event and leave it at that.


Personally I think option 1 is inconsistent and not inclusive enough, while option 2 is unrealistic and ridiculous, so I like option 3, and apparently, so does the rest of the planet and all but maybe 3 countries on earth.

 

[Ruke Doufus]

If we don't know who conquered the land prior to our conquering of the land how can we possibly engage in discourse about literally anything??

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

How about this, let those who want to acknowledge, acknowledge. Let those who don't want to, skip it.

 

[Andy Capp]

And I answered your question twice yet you completely avoided mine.

I still missed the point because I think it’s pointless.

I disregarded your question about the opening ceremonies because I didn't watch them plus if you're talking about a performance or whatever by a bunch of trans people, which I vaguely recall people whining about, it's irrlevant to the topic and dumb. Who would that be disrespectful toward besides bigots?

 

[Stump]

Well, I guess there are three options and those are:

Option 1. - do what they’re doing now and draw the line at the exact moment when white Europeans conquered the indigenous tribes, pretend this was some unique thing in history and ignore all other similar events.

Option 2. - Be consistent and have a never ending line, make every group of people go through this struggle session on every slab of land on earth. Have Canadians do a land acknowledgement for taking whatever land they’re standing on from whatever tribe, then have that tribe do their own land acknowledgement for taking it from whichever tribe inhabited it before them, and so on.

Option 3. - Have no line at all, no one does the stupid acknowledgments, teach what happened in history class as you do every other historical event and leave it at that.


Personally I think option 1 is inconsistent and not inclusive enough, while option 2 is unrealistic and ridiculous, so I like option 3, and apparently, so does the rest of the planet and all but maybe 3 countries on earth.

I suppose you're okay with Israel demolishing Gaza and Russia invading Ukraine, then? Might makes right? As long as the Russians and Israelis include a module on this history in the text books, its all good?

I prefer option 4: to the extent possible, consider the footprints of our ancestors and how we are living with the consequences of their actions good and bad. History class is not the bastion of final societal judgement. When a group of people in a country acknowledges a structure that generates shitty outcome for a visible minority within that country, then there will be a long and complicated process of getting over this unfortunate structure and coming up with something better. It's not going to be overnight, and it's not always going to be harnessed properly - it'll be abused by some virtue signaling dorks, for sure, but it's a part of the continual cultural conversation.

Yes, this wasn't the way things were done in the past, but so what? Outright slavery and subjugation of women were par for the course in the entire world not more than a hundred years ago. Things are getting better, individual and group rights are becoming more recognized. You arent wrong in pointing out that the land isnt going to be given back, but that's missing the point. This is a part of an ongoing process, and it makes sense to me.

 

[Andy Capp]

How about this, let those who want to acknowledge, acknowledge. Let those who don't want to, skip it.

Treaties are made between indigenous peoples and the federal government. The government doesn't (or shouldn't at least) disregard them whenever it suits them.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Treaties are made between indigenous peoples and the federal government. The government doesn't (or shouldn't at least) disregard them whenever it suits them.

I understand the purpose behind it but if there is no law compelling people to make such acknowledgements, then why not leave it up to the people to use their own judgement?

 

[joy2day]

I don't think the idea of keeping it in people's consciousness is a bad thing. I just don't think police press conferences are a good place if you want people to hear it and learn about it. No one that doesn't know about this history learned anything- that was in one ear and out the other. School history class is where history is taught appropriately, where teachers explain things thoroughly and take questions, and kids can talk to their parents about it. As far as the actual Native Americans, it's, "Oh, thanks for reminding us that you killed our ancestors and stole our land." Exactly how does it benefit them to keep announcing this in public?

 

[UberHere]

Get woke, buddy!

 

[Lycandroid]

How about this, let those who want to acknowledge, acknowledge. Let those who don't want to, skip it.

That would be fine except for people are getting punished/losing opportunities for not participating. Just for an example I know for a fact that there are many music venues and promoters across canada that will tell you ahead of time to make one during the show and for bands that decide not to you will not be asked back and you will be smeared and black listed with other venues and promoters and it's only all white all male bands that seem to have this test thrust upon them. In 99% of cases though the bands will do it, but it comes across as cheap and unauthentic.

Treaties are made between indigenous peoples and the federal government. The government doesn't (or shouldn't at least) disregard them whenever it suits them.

The government disregarded nearly all of them up until the 1980s, it is much better now but it is not a stretch to say they disregard the treaties, there has been a virtually perpetual state of litigation in treaty issues for 40 years now.

 

[Koro_11]

I disregarded your question about the opening ceremonies because I didn't watch them plus if you're talking about a performance or whatever by a bunch of trans people, which I vaguely recall people whining about, it's irrlevant to the topic and dumb. Who would that be disrespectful toward besides bigots?

It's no more irrelevant to this thread than your question to me about the pic of Trump dressed as the pope, but I still gave you a straight answer.

I guess it wasn't the answer you were expecting, but as you can see I have no problem criticizing my own "side" if it's something I don't agree with, yet I still pick that side because although they're not perfect and I don't agree with every single thing, the alternative is siding with spineless weasels like you who are incapable of having an honest conversation to save their life, and predictably resort to the exact cowardly tactics that you just displayed.

My question was irrelevant to this thread, but it was very relevant to your irrelevant question which was whether Trump pope pic was being disrespectful to Christians. So I answered you my honest thoughts, then asked if you if you thought the French Olympic ceremony was also disrespectful to Christians, and of course you dicktucked and defaulted to your "transphobe bigot" accusation... talk about predictable, just give you guys enough rope and watch you hang yourselves every time.

 

[Koro_11]

I suppose you're okay with Israel demolishing Gaza and Russia invading Ukraine, then? Might makes right? As long as the Russians and Israelis include a module on this history in the text books, its all good?

What the fuck do current events in Ukraine and Gaza have to do with land acknowledgements from centuries in the past?

No one is saying might is right, we can call a spade a spade, and I still don't think Russians centuries in the future need to sit there and have struggle sessions over some piece of Ukraine their ancestors may have won in this conflict.

 

[Andy Capp]

I understand the purpose behind it but if there is no law compelling people to make such acknowledgements, then why not leave it up to the people to use their own judgement?

I can't say I know anything about the treaties themselves, nor the rules that RCMP (a federal paramilitary agency) are required to follow, to say if there is a law saying they need to do it or not, but it seems plausible. A lot of this comes as a result of something called the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

It's a good place to start for an understanding of what this is all about.

The point is to first recognize that indigenous people are citizens of Canada just like all the various people of white ethnicities (and there are a lot of different ones), but they've been treated in ways that these other people haven't been subjected to, and they still are, though to a far lesser degree.

And second, having taken action to work toward that, to try to reconcile with them and show a sincere effort to make things right. I. e. show them some respect, hence the land acknowledgement.

This article refers to issues which are also relevant to the discussion.

RCMP’s ‘paramilitary’ structure should be dismantled to address systemic racism, Commons committee says

Systemic racism in Canadian policing is a “real and pressing problem” in need of urgent action and a sweeping overhaul of the RCMP’s paramilitary structure, a House of Commons committee says.

www.thestar.com

Note that there was a bipartisan recognition in the legislature of these issues as opposed to an attack of "woke".

"In a supplemental report, the opposition Conservatives agreed that there is systemic racism in Canadian policing that needs to be addressed. However, Conservative MPs criticized what they saw as “ideological” recommendations outside the scope of the committee’s mandate, such as the recommendation to decriminalize simple possession of illicit drugs.

The Conservatives said they are “willing to put in the hard work to eliminate the root causes of systemic racism without sacrificing the safety of our communities, attacking our national law enforcement service or resorting to radical policies that do nothing to address the issue.”
The Conservatives also suggested the committee report recommends “defunding” the police, which it does not explicitly do. Shannon Stubbs, the Conservative public safety critic, was not available for an interview Thursday.

In a written statement, spokesperson Sgt. Caroline Duval said the RCMP has not been “standing still” on addressing systemic racism within the institution, pointing to the force’s “Vision 150” goals of increased diversity within the ranks, “strengthening timelines” on the civilian complaint process and putting an emphasis on reconciliation with Indigenous communities."

Edit: does anyone here remember the word contrition?

 

[Andy Capp]

I don't think the idea of keeping it in people's consciousness is a bad thing. I just don't think police press conferences are a good place if you want people to hear it and learn about it. No one that doesn't know about this history learned anything- that was in one ear and out the other. School history class is where history is taught appropriately, where teachers explain things thoroughly and take questions, and kids can talk to their parents about it. As far as the actual Native Americans, it's, "Oh, thanks for reminding us that you killed our ancestors and stole our land." Exactly how does it benefit them to keep announcing this in public?

When I was a kid, they didn't teach about this stuff in history class. At that time, residential schools still existed. Educators systemically turned a blind eye. Issues facing indigenous people were more or less completely ignored or dismissed for most of my life.

That has only started to change relatively recently. Nowadays, many people still see them as "uppity" as they seek affirmation that the gains they have made won't suddenly disappear in a puff of racism.

Hence both the land acknowledgement and the shitty comments about it ITT. Re: the bold, it's because it gets people to think. You may not be able to reach old bigots, but maybe you get to someone who is merely ignorant of the whole thing and ends up looking into it for their own edification. It's not like there aren't plenty of well-meaning liberals who are uninformed of the topic--not that I'm super knowledgeable myself, mind you.

 

[Andy Capp]

It's no more irrelevant to this thread than your question to me about the pic of Trump dressed as the pope, but I still gave you a straight answer.

I guess it wasn't the answer you were expecting, but as you can see I have no problem criticizing my own "side" if it's something I don't agree with, yet I still pick that side because although they're not perfect and I don't agree with every single thing, the alternative is siding with spineless weasels like you who are incapable of having an honest conversation to save their life, and predictably resort to the exact cowardly tactics that you just displayed.

My question was irrelevant to this thread, but it was very relevant to your irrelevant question which was whether Trump pope pic was being disrespectful to Christians. So I answered you my honest thoughts, then asked if you if you thought the French Olympic ceremony was also disrespectful to Christians, and of course you dicktucked and defaulted to your "transphobe bigot" accusation... talk about predictable, just give you guys enough rope and watch you hang yourselves every time.

lol what a load of crap. Especially where it comes to picking sides. Again, even when pointed out to you, you missed the point altogether. It could have been any public official in the pope costume. I forgot how dumb you are, honest to fuck.

I have no idea what happened at the Olympics nor give a fuck why it would be disrespectful to Christians but if it's that they dressed as priests or some shit, Monty Python beat them to it 60 years ago.

We're talking about a head of state and a government paramilitary organization. Not fucking civilians at the fucking opening ceremonies.

 

[Andy Capp]

That would be fine except for people are getting punished/losing opportunities for not participating. Just for an example I know for a fact that there are many music venues and promoters across canada that will tell you ahead of time to make one during the show and for bands that decide not to you will not be asked back and you will be smeared and black listed with other venues and promoters and it's only all white all male bands that seem to have this test thrust upon them. In 99% of cases though the bands will do it, but it comes across as cheap and unauthentic.

The government disregarded nearly all of them up until the 1980s, it is much better now but it is not a stretch to say they disregard the treaties, there has been a virtually perpetual state of litigation in treaty issues for 40 years now.

As well there should be. The government has been acting in bad faith for a long time. Funnily enough, considering it's you expressing this, Trudeau did more for indigenous peoples while in office than any PM in many decades, though still not as much as he could have.

 

[Lycandroid]

As well there should be. The government has been acting in bad faith for a long time. Funnily enough, considering it's you expressing this, Trudeau did more for indigenous peoples while in office than any PM in many decades, though still not as much as he could have.

You could argue that yes, the Liberal did spend more on education and reconciliation initiatives, but they have failed hard on the issues that affect First Nations the most. They do just enough to butter us up and get our vote but never enough to make any meaningful change.

Trudeau has spent more money suing First Nations then all previous governments combined and has billions yet to be paid out. The reality is that fully adhering to the treaties would end the country.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/canada-liabilities-indigenous-legal-claims-1.7058139