Why striking (stand up) loses to wrestling more often than not

[shpboris]

MMA isn't really a global sport the way something like boxing is. 90% of mma fighters are North American or Brazilian. Sure there's ONE FC and all, and a lot of good fighters coming out of places like Dagestan and Chechnya, but MMA isn't popular or respected in many parts of the world. Chances are, like most others, he just doesn't give a shit about MMA--and certainly not enough to take all the risks involved for such little reward.

Or a good amateur that didn't want to go pro. Why would he go pro in MMA if not boxing? What's the incentive? It's not really gonna happen unless that guy LIKES MMA, which many people don't. They don't really have good incentives in terms of money, definitely not compared to if they got into boxing. They have to learn entire new skillsets only to get paid less than they would if they kept boxing. It's more likely they would either quit combat sports altogether if they didn't want to go pro.

There's also the fact that no one has to pave the way for grapplers making the transition. It's already well-paved. There are gyms that specialize in teaching wrestlers how to fight. Strikers have only had scattered representation. The systems aren't in place for the transition to be fluid for them. Not many people are willing to be the innovators who show it can be done.

I definitely see your point about difficulty of learning new skills or not being interested in MMA altogether. Or the MMA not being a global sport yet (though this is really changing rapidly).

But I am not sure about this part - "They have to learn entire new skillsets only to get paid less than they would if they kept boxing." . I don't have clear data on the financial aspect of fighting in boxing vs MMA. Just whatever I see published here and there after some boxing and MMA events. And based on that it looks to me that middle-to-top tier in MMA can make more money, than boxers of the corresponding level. Say, somebody in top 15-20 in their division.

In addition, IMO, the following motivation can exist for a good boxer to try the transition - say, you are top 20-30 in your division, but you don't have a talent to make it big in boxing. Say, not fast enough or reflexes or whatever. But your standup is very good by MMA standards AND(!) you have some complementary gift/skill that can help you to become top fighter in MMA - say, you are very strong physically or you did ok in wrestling in college or both. So you tradeoff looks like to be top 30 boxer or MAY BE make it big in MMA.

 

[a guy]

I definitely see your point about difficulty of learning new skills or not being interested in MMA altogether. Or the MMA not being a global sport yet (though this is really changing rapidly).

But I am not sure about this part - "They have to learn entire new skillsets only to get paid less than they would if they kept boxing." . I don't have clear data on the financial aspect of fighting in boxing vs MMA. Just whatever I see published here and there after some boxing and MMA events. And based on that it looks to me that middle-to-top tier in MMA can make more money, than boxers of the corresponding level. Say, somebody in top 15-20 in their division.

In addition, IMO, the following motivation can exist for a good boxer to try the transition - say, you are top 20-30 in your division, but you don't have a talent to make it big in boxing. Say, not fast enough or reflexes or whatever. But your standup is very good by MMA standards AND(!) you have some complementary gift/skill that can help you to become top fighter in MMA - say, you are very strong physically or you did ok in wrestling in college or both. So you tradeoff looks like to be top 30 boxer or MAY BE make it big in MMA.

Even if the earnings potential is a little higher at the mid level, my point is that it's not enough to compensate the fighter for the risk.

Now of course the situation you're describing is possible. The problem is it's going to be very rare. The individual would have to not only see the potential to make it big in MMA, they'd have to respect it as a sport. Many boxers don't. Many think it's unsportsmanlike, unmanly, gay or barbaric. The whole stupid boxing vs MMA rivalry doesn't help matters either.

So even if you did get some guys in the right situation who actually WANTED to fight mma full time, how many would you really get? Not nearly enough to compare to the constant, endless stream of top grappling talent--neither in quality nor quantity.

 

[TheGZA]

the cage and rules favor the wrestler

lets see a wrestler in a ring under pride fc rules and 10 minute first rd

 

[Phlog]

Because they are forms of fighting and I am intrigued by the "science" of overpowering your opponent. I love fighting. My father is a martial artist.

What opponent? Context is crucial.

Why not weight lifting vs sprinting? Both involve overpowering an opponent. Why have you chosen boxing and wrestling? Did you just throw darts at a wall blindfolded?

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

was this thread seriously written in 2015?

 

[spacetime]

was this thread seriously written in 2015?

Most people know this, but not why

 

[Jukai]

Hey Spacetime, have you found that interview with Tyson saying he is scared of Thai fighters yet?

There should be a thread "Why Strikers (Standup Technique members) forget Spacetime is a troll more often than not"

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

Most people know this, but not why

I think that explaining yourself should have taken some sort of precedence when you wrote your original post. Your also massively underestimating the importance of technique in wrestling; a wrestler will man-handle a striker, not necessarily because they're stronger, but because the striker has never had the appropriate training needed to stuff takedowns.

 

[spacetime]

I think that explaining yourself should have taken some sort of precedence when you wrote your original post. Your also massively underestimating the importance of technique in wrestling; a wrestler will man-handle a striker, not necessarily because they're stronger, but because the striker has never had the appropriate training needed to stuff takedowns.

I disagree. It's possible for a dynamic striker to stuff takedown attempts, having no knowledge of wrestling. I have against a college wrestler. And that guy was glued to me.

 

[spacetime]

Hey Spacetime, have you found that interview with Tyson saying he is scared of Thai fighters yet?

There should be a thread "Why Strikers (Standup Technique members) forget Spacetime is a troll more often than not"

I never said he was afraid of thai fighters.

 

[Tayski]

Obvious troll thread but I'd just like to point point out that the majority of the most dominant champions the UFC has had and who are also mentioned in the pound-for-pound discussions are either from a striking background, or have a very dominant striking style.

Anderson Silva = striking background: trained and competed in Tae Kwon Do and Muay Thai for many years before turning to BJJ and MMA.
GSP = striking background: trained exclusively Kyokushin Karate for 9 years before taking up other arts like BJJ, boxing and wrestling.
Jose Aldo = striking dominant style, out of his 16 finishes: 14 KO/TKO, and only 2 submissions
Jon Jones = comes from wrestling, but his style is also heavily striking based. 15 finishes: 9 KO/TKO's, and 6 submissions

how do you explain that OP?

 

[shpboris]

Jon Jones = comes from wrestling, but his style is also heavily striking based. 15 finishes: 9 KO/TKO's, and 6 submissions

If you go with that ^ logic, then the following is true for GSP:
GSP = striking background, but but his style is also heavily wrestling based

 

[Tayski]

If you go with that ^ logic, then the following is true for GSP:
GSP = striking background, but but his style is also heavily wrestling based

you're right. but my point remains.

 

[spacetime]

Obvious troll thread but I'd just like to point point out that the majority of the most dominant champions the UFC has had and who are also mentioned in the pound-for-pound discussions are either from a striking background, or have a very dominant striking style.

Anderson Silva = striking background: trained and competed in Tae Kwon Do and Muay Thai for many years before turning to BJJ and MMA.
GSP = striking background: trained exclusively Kyokushin Karate for 9 years before taking up other arts like BJJ, boxing and wrestling.
Jose Aldo = striking dominant style, out of his 16 finishes: 14 KO/TKO, and only 2 submissions
Jon Jones = comes from wrestling, but his style is also heavily striking based. 15 finishes: 9 KO/TKO's, and 6 submissions

how do you explain that OP?

I was referring to style vs style, why wrestling wins more often than not. Those guys you mentioned, with the possible exception of Anderson, would not have anywhere near the success the've had, if it were not for their training and application of wrestling. Jon Jones wrestling is a huge factor. His striking is not very good. Compare that to a wrestler and you could have a guy like Randy Couture who basically only knows wrestling competently become UFC champion.

 

[Tayski]

I was referring to style vs style, why wrestling wins more often than not. Those guys you mentioned, with the possible exception of Anderson, would not have anywhere near the success the've had, if it were not for their training and application of wrestling. Jon Jones wrestling is a huge factor. His striking is not very good. Compare that to a wrestler and you could have a guy like Randy Couture who basically only knows wrestling competently and become champion.

you do realise that MMA has not been style vs. style for over a decade?
Everybody trains both striking (usually boxing, muay thai, etc.) as well as grappling (wrestling, BJJ, etc.)
Of course champions are not just one style, they have the ability to be well rounded and good at everything.
The guys I mentioned got successful because they also mastered striking. Wrestling alone would have taken them where they got. Guys like Chael Sonnen would have been dominant champions otherwise.

As many have already mentioned in this thread, MMA rules are bended towards wrestlers so of course wrestling is crucial in MMA.

 

[spacetime]

you do realise that MMA has not been style vs. style for over a decade?
Everybody trains both striking (usually boxing, muay thai, etc.) as well as grappling (wrestling, BJJ, etc.)
Of course champions are not just one style, they have the ability to be well rounded and good at everything.
The guys I mentioned got successful because they also mastered striking. Wrestling alone would have taken them where they got. Guys like Chael Sonnen would have been dominant champions otherwise.

As many have already mentioned in this thread, MMA rules are bended towards wrestlers so of course wrestling is crucial in MMA.

Most people would say that MMA rules favour the striker. And you cannot refute the fact that a world class wrestler could very well win a ufc division. It's next to impossible for a striker. He would have to win the lottery each match (KO).

 

[Tayski]

Most people would say that MMA rules favour the striker. And you cannot refute the fact that a world class wrestler could very well win a ufc division. It's next to impossible for a striker. He would have to win the lottery each match (KO).

Most people?
Most people say the rules favour the grappler actually. And this is why:

-the gloves are open and the fingers free to grip, grapple, and clinch easily.
-Unlimited time on the ground, unless the fighters are inactive.
-Not allowed to kick or knee your opponent if he's 'down' or has at least a knee or hand on the floor.
-Not allowed to stomp on a grounded opponent.
-Not allowed downward elbows.
-Not allowed to twist fingers or toes.
-Not allowed to grab your opponent's gloves or shorts.
-Not allowed to grab or hold the cage to stop a take down.
-Not allowed excessive use of Vaseline.

how do the rules favour the striker exactly? The only possible advantage for a striker is that there are several rounds of 5 minutes instead of just 1 big round. What else?

 

[Azam]

Most people?
Most people say the rules favour the grappler actually. And this is why:

-the gloves are open and the fingers free to grip, grapple, and clinch easily.
-Unlimited time on the ground, unless the fighters are inactive.
-Not allowed to kick or knee your opponent if he's 'down' or has at least a knee or hand on the floor.
-Not allowed to stomp on a grounded opponent.
-Not allowed downward elbows.
-Not allowed to twist fingers or toes.
-Not allowed to grab your opponent's gloves or shorts.
-Not allowed to grab or hold the cage to stop a take down.

how do the rules favour the striker exactly? The only possible advantage for a striker is that there are several rounds of 5 minutes instead of just 1 big round. What else?

I agree it does favour grapplers more - I've always maintained that as well.

But that said - Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Aldo, GSP - all have one thing in common - their ability to dictate where a fight takes place. Grappling is essential to that skill - striking also plays a part (i.e. distance control) - but with all the above it's their ability to keep the fight where they want that makes them so dominant - grappling plays a huge part in that. They all just happen to be good stand up fighters (except Jon Jones imho lol) - if they couldn't dictate where a fight took place they wouldn't have been dominant champions for long.

Grappling - wrestling more specifically plays the most important part I think - not because wrestling is dominant - it's not imho - but because it allows you to push the fight towards wherever your strength may be - whether that is standing or on the ground - neglect striking though and your wrestling won't mean shit if you get clocked before dictating where you want the fight to take place - that's why I feel wrestling is extremely important but not dominant. All facets are of equal importance - but from an application point of view the most important is being able to effectively choose which areas you will take a fight.

 

[Celestial Kid]

Most people would say that MMA rules favour the striker. And you cannot refute the fact that a world class wrestler could very well win a ufc division. It's next to impossible for a striker. He would have to win the lottery each match (KO).

Look through the thread again. Most people say mma rules favor grapplers. Not strikers. Only you think so cause you cant handle the truth. 😂

 

[Gambledub]

Most people?
Most people say the rules favour the grappler actually. And this is why:

-the gloves are open and the fingers free to grip, grapple, and clinch easily.
-Unlimited time on the ground, unless the fighters are inactive.
-Not allowed to kick or knee your opponent if he's 'down' or has at least a knee or hand on the floor.
-Not allowed to stomp on a grounded opponent.
-Not allowed downward elbows.
-Not allowed to twist fingers or toes.
-Not allowed to grab your opponent's gloves or shorts.
-Not allowed to grab or hold the cage to stop a take down.*****
-Not allowed excessive use of Vaseline.

how do the rules favour the striker exactly? The only possible advantage for a striker is that there are several rounds of 5 minutes instead of just 1 big round. What else?

I would agree that the bolded points favor grapplers. I feel like the underlined points tend to or arguably benefit strikers just as much if not more. As to what's left:

Open gloves do not necessarily benefit strikers (although for some things such as trapping and people not being able to cover up they do) however to not have open gloves would essentially nerf grappling altogether. Vaseline is the same, MMA started and should at least mimic a street fight, I don't have stats but i'm guessing most fights don't have competitors covered in some sort of lube.

Limited ground time is also pretty silly for mma, so you're gonna stand people up mid RNC?

The starred point, also does slightly help strikers too. I believe the rule was implemented to stop wrestlers wall and stalling by grabbing the cage and having a near unbreakable clinch.

Edit: this thread is pretty silly, also TS implying wrestlers are only dominant because of attributes such as strength is pretty offensive towards grapplers too.