Why striking (stand up) loses to wrestling more often than not

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by spacetime, Aug 23, 2015.

  1. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    - A wrestler wins by a poor takedown. Any takedown is a win. No matter how you do it, get the striker to the ground and he's fried against a legit wrestler

    - A striker is 9 times out 10 largely inferior in strenght to that of a wrestler. Get in close and you will get taken down once he grabs on to you.

    - a striker needs a knockout blow or he's screwed. It's a lottery. The same cannot be said of the wrestler. A mediocre takedown is still a takedown. The wrestler can also fail and attempt again, and again.. If a striker hits but doesn't effect the wrestler, he can get taken down = over.

    - A wrestler has superior conditioning to a striker.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
  2. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    I'm a wrestler/judoka by trade, been in a shit ton of fights in my life, i'd say a little over half of mine did. I was a bigger fan of clinching and knees or soccer kicking a dumbass to Bolivian.

    Striking and grappling conditioning is totally different. One is against a resisting loard and the other is not. One is more highly anaerobic and LT vs aerobic, and the other is more aerobic with fits of anaerobic bursts. Both will feel like shit if you aren't conditioned to the other.
     
  3. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

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    What about upkicks from off your back then? If wrestler tries to take striker down, the striker should be allowed to kick at the wrestlers head once they down.

    Or what if striker learns some wrestling so he can keep it standing long enough to strike wrestler's eyes or kick his ballz.

    And only a dedicated trains full time wrestler takes people down with any consistency. If you an average joe trying for a takedown it wont work out as planned more often than not.
     
  4. Kanka

    Kanka Black Belt

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    So what about the muay thai clinch? In sparring ive rag dolled guys that outweight me by 30 lbs muscle mass and also dumped a bjj guy several times but i have no idea of how it would work against a wrestler.
     
  5. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    If they are equally talented, the wrestler is so strong that he will get him down (painfully...)and control everything, more often than the striking will KO him. Kicking a wrestler while being on your back is unlikely. Anderson silva has done it but he's got freakish limbs and cordination. Compare a striking vs wrestling match up to entering a striking contest in which your first blow MUST take your opponent out in some way. I wouldn't pick those odds...
     
  6. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Better than nothing, but I would never put my money on the Thai fighter, if both are legit.
     
  7. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

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    If they are equally talented then wont they both know striking and wrestling?
     
  8. muayjiujitsu

    muayjiujitsu Yellow Belt

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    I think you watch too much UFC bro. Here's an example of a medicore takedown getting countered by a striker where the rules don't prevent the striker from utilising his strengths like in UFC/Unified rules. From 11:20 for example
    [YT]jG-rCAU6rxU?t=11m20s [/YT]
     
  9. Tsar

    Tsar Brown Belt

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    none of this is true.
     
  10. Paradigm

    Paradigm Gold Belt

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    lolwut? who says that?
     
  11. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Equally talented in their respective art. There are killers in striking and kicking arts who are very precise. But the hole point is that they need to be exceptional, a wrestler only needs to avoid getting caught, and the odds are on him. Killer strikers/kickers are the only ones I would dare bet on between professionals. And I am still not sure I would...
     
  12. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Everyone in the grappling forum. Wrestlers would benefit from kicks to grounded opponents, head butts, and 12-6 elbows because they could utilize those from takedowns better than strikers.

    Stalling is rewarded by standing the competitors up. You don't even have to escape back control, risking being GNP'd from mount. You can just hand fight for 2 minutes, save your energy, and get stood up.

    Round breaks benefit strikers by starting back on the feet.

    Gloves let strikers hit harder and interfere with the application of the RNC.

    All of those things are contrived by the sport.

    No rounds, no gloves, no stand-ups for stalling, 12-6 elbows, headbutts and kicks to grounded opponents would make the UFC much more wrestler friendly.
     
  13. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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    the cage and rules favor the wrestler

    lets see a wrestler in a ring under pride fc rules and 10 minute first rd
     
  14. Paradigm

    Paradigm Gold Belt

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    so strikers couldn't benefit from spiking elbows to the spine during sprawls or kneeing guys to the head on failed TD attempts? couldnt strikers use eye gouges against some wrestler with his head buried in his chest?

    i mean, you change the rules that we currently have and it would be a grapplefest, by what youre saying. the problem is that this is entertainment and nobody wants to watch pure grappling over striking, or events like ADCC would be selling hundreds of thousands of PPVs.

    we already know there are gifs of wresters benefiting from the rule changes you mentioned. going to the ground isnt solely a result of a takedown.

    who is the striker and who is the grappler here? the Fedor one is questionable since he has a serious grappling background himself.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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    what nonsense...like comparing a sprinter vs a marathon runner here.

    boxers and kickboxers in my opinion are more likely better conditioned than majority of MMA fighters who come in looking soft and flabby
     
  16. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    MMA is irrelevant. Wrestling is heavily favoured under any freestyle fighting condition. Between heavyweights, I'd say the odds are the absolute worst for a striker. Although this is disputable.
     
  17. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Btw, what I just wrote does not apply to the grappler:icon_chee You guys are only clear favorites once on the ground.
     
  18. Paradigm

    Paradigm Gold Belt

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    why would HWs strikers have the worst odds? don't HWs in combat sports have the highest KO ratios?
     
  19. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Well, people having done both claim the conditioning in wrestling is more demanding than in boxing.
     
  20. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Because the heavyweight wrestlers are the strongest, and this poses a critical problem close range/clinch. The KO rates between strikers don't really matter much. They have time to KO each other. They don't KO on the first impact (usually). And the Knockout rates in MMA are irrelevant since they are all trained in wrestling and grappling for MMA events.
     
  21. TheFinerDetails

    TheFinerDetails Orange Belt

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    The simple answer everyone overlooks is this. A wrestler trains to keep someone on the ground for as long as they possibly can. A striker trains to hit someone who is standing in front of them.
    Coincidence that one favorus the other in an mma-style fight?
    The problem with training "a little bit of wrestling" to defend takedowns, is that the people who are training for wrestling are training to beat people who train as hard as them. A person who "trains a little bit of wrestling" stands no match for someone who is day in day out at the gym training.
     
  22. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Coming from a judo-wrestling background, I'd say this is a very artificial question now, since almost everyone in MMA learns both wresting and striking.

    I'm old enough to remember the 70's and 80's, before the first UFC's, when people argued about it, but even then it was pretty idealized; most people did at least a bit of both back then (boxing and wrestling were popular sports for kids and even taught in gym class in the 60's and 70's).

    They do work different systems - striking is more cardio based, wrestling more muscular endurance. You have to be in brutally good shape to do either at a world class level, but in different ways.
     
  23. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

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    Put how will the wrestler finish the fight? He cannot strike or submit, unless you are included submission wrestlers as wrestlers. If it is just a pure wrestler that is takedown and pin, then he cannot pin someone to death.
     
  24. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    He can finish him off in a number of ways. For instance Randy Couture style and just throw haymakers to the face. It doesn't need to be technical, just strike. And he can too choke him out easily once the striker is tired. You don't need submission expertise.
     
  25. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Dammit Spacetime!!
    Now I have to soothe-say my jabbing fist. It's getting all twitchy and jumpy... going on and on about how it's going to punch the eyeballs out of your sockets.

    *calm down, Piston.... calm down. Spacetime didn't mean any of that. He got alittle tailwind behind him when he started blabbing on and on and just wasn't able to reel in his emotion. It spilled over into all of that nonsense you saw. Now just come down, Piston. I don't need another body to hide and bury*
     
  26. TheFinerDetails

    TheFinerDetails Orange Belt

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    (IN GENERAL) The cardiovascular system of a boxer is tenfold better than that of a wrestler. The wrestlers explosiveness, strength and muscle endurance however, are all extremely better than the wrestlers. This is simply because boxers run and train to fight long winded rounds, with small bursts and flurries of power, whereas a wrestler/grappler will train for strength and muscle endurance in a HIIT style formula, because they use explosive movements and they might have 5 matches throughout 5 hours, but they have 50 minutes break between matches. A boxer can probably outrun a wrestler, but a wrestler will outlift a boxer (out lift in terms of weight and of endurance) every single time.

    The reason MMA fighters gas when you rarely see high level kickboxers/Nak Muays/grapplers gas, is because you are only using one form of fitness in these other styles of fighting. MMA isn't more DEMANDING by any means, it's just working so many muscles that it almost shocks your system by how often you'll switch from explosiveness, to straight out lifting strength and so on.

    Y'all should check out the F13 forum, some great knowledgeable guys who talk about alactic, anaerobic and all that jazz that I haven't bothered delving into yet.

    My personal observation and opinions based on little citations but rather from acquired knowledge:
    - BJJ is a lazy sport. Until the high levels, people train as little as they can, and have an excuse to eat as poorly as they can even if they don't realise they aren't really burning that many calories.
    - Wrestling is a strict sport. But it's so strict that only a miniscule amount of people will ever reach the high level of sport where intense training is involved.
    - Boxing/Kickboxing/Muay Thai can be either lazy or strict. The person training can push themselves, or limit themselves.
    - A general observation I've made is that strikers are generally very good at strict dieting, whereas a BJJ guys are lazy, eat whatever they want and follow the whole "any weight, all skill" ethos.
    - BJJ guys smoke cigarettes. I think it's because BJJ is attractive to the average Joe, whereas Wrestling is elitist and most guys dont like getting punched in the face for 12 rounds.

    TLDR; To sum this all up, you contradicted yourself when you said, "claim the conditioning in wrestling is more demanding than in boxing", you said it yourself. CONDITIONING. It's simply whatever you are CONDITIONED to.
     
  27. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    If you usually dig the elbows in tightly (double collar) and keep their head down, working from there should be okay. If not, its takedown city for the grappler, a blast double is basically there.
     
  28. TheFinerDetails

    TheFinerDetails Orange Belt

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    In MMA, this doesn't work anymore. It's a different sport to what it used to be. If it does work, it's because the guys are extremely high levels in their respective grappling areas (see Palhares and Demien Maia in BJJ King form), and EVEN THEN, it doesn't always work. (See Demien Maia when he tried to K1 everyone).
     
  29. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    A boxers conditioning is in any case not for the ground. That's however what the wrestler is conditioned for. A grappler is not neccesarily freakishly strong, I can evade and fuck them up in the clinch. I cannot do the same with a wrestler, once he grabs on to me.
     
  30. TheFinerDetails

    TheFinerDetails Orange Belt

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    I never once stated freakishly strong, I said that they way they train is for strength, explosiveness and muscular endurance, rather than having a well working cardiovascular system.
    Conditioning has nothing to do with technique. The reason you're avoiding a boxer in the clinch is because he doesn't train to clinch. A wrestler clinches, and works around clinching.
    Technique has no relation to conditioning.
     
  31. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    I never said you claimed it, it's what I claim. Don't want them to grab a hold of you.
     
  32. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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    get a wrestler to box and watch his arms get tired...

    they are two different sports

    you and the OP clearly dont train and go on "hear say"

    I'm not saying wrestling isnt hard but it's stupid to compared different aspects that use different energy system and muscles

    also wrestling is easy when you can use a cage, these wrestlers just clinch and stall majority of the time pinning a guy against the fence oh wow.

    striking is harder in a cage since it has no corners or ropes to cut off an opponent.

    just a pointless discussion when MMA is in a cage and rules favor wrestlers unfairly
     
  33. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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    talking out your ass about BJJ and sport bjj competitors

    just another idiot that doesnt train.
     
  34. spacetime

    spacetime Silver Belt

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    Plenty of rules which favour wrestlers. Including stoppage for rounds (time up) once they get a good position, a striker can be saved by the bell.

    My proposition is the same for the street. The wrestler is a huge favourite in style vs style.
     

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