Why p4p? (offensive to "real fans")

[Davemeddlehed]

But why is the size being neutralized? Jose Aldo/Conor McGregor might not be the most skilled guy in FW. There might be some guy ranked 200 in FW with record of 7-12-1 who is more SKILLED than anyone in the UFC but has a terrible chin, terrible endurance, terrible speed, terrible power, terrible balance, terrible coordination and so on. Is he the best fighter ever? If not, why isn't his lack of physical talent neutralized? Why doesn't he get a pass?
Why should anyone think that TJ Dillashaw is better fighter than Soa Palelei if TJ couldn't last a round with him?

How could someone be more skilled if they have a terrible chin, endurance, speed, power, balance, and coordination? No one "gets a pass" in pound for pound. They simply apply the current skillset in a hypothetical where both fighters are the same size. Kyle Maynard may have been the best fighter to ever live if he had arms and legs, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

[BubbaH]

GOAT is as stupid as P4P. Impossible to measure and the cause of endless arguments lol.

I 100% agree.

 

[kikikhan]

A fight is a fight and the winner of the fight is the better fighter. The fact that weight classes exist to protect smaller fighters should tell you that they are inferior FIGHTERS.

If you want them to be flashy and nerdy, create an ultimate MMA Kata Championship.

The best fighters are those who are the best at beating other fighters, no matter the size up. Simple.

 

[kikikhan]

I 100% agree.

Says who?

I have realistic criteria and my GOAT is very very clear.

How is the HW, who was the nr. 1 fighter in MMA for 7 years and 3 months and undefeated for 10 years, not the GOAT?

NO ONE IS CLOSE TO THAT.

DEAL WITH IT!!!!!

 

[Wayweary]

The reason is that we can't see fighters who have different weights fight each other. There's no reason for the labels from your list because we can see those fights happen. We're never gonna see Jose Aldo vs Jon Jones so it's interesting to think about who'd be better if they were theoretically the same size. That's all it is.

Size changes a number of things about your performance besides what weight class you fight in. It makes you tire faster when you exert yourself fully, it makes you slower, adds risk to your techniques (from your opponent) therefore changing what is possible in the cage, etc. There is no way to isolate size from many other variables that represent important aspects of fighting.

 

[Toothless King]

it's POUNDS 4 POUNDS

not strength 4 strength, or speed 4 speed

 

[BubbaH]

Says who?

I have realistic criteria and my GOAT is very very clear.

How is the HW, who was the nr. 1 fighter in MMA for 7 years and 3 months and undefeated for 10 years, not the GOAT?

NO ONE IS CLOSE TO THAT.

DEAL WITH IT!!!!!

Calm down Kiki. GOAT discussions are nothing more than a platform for a bunch of arguments that can never be settled.

Example: Your GOAT got subbed in a minute, pounded relentlessly by a HW who gets KO'd regularly lately, and KO'd by a MW.

O know you have plenty to retort with, but you get what I am saying. No matter anyone says, there's always someone who can step in and discount what they say. GOAT discussions are worthless. P4P discussions are beyond worthless.

 

[Enders]

I agree 100% with TS.

If you are in a division that puts a limit on what attributes a fighter is allowed to bring to the cage, you can never claim to be the best fighter.

I've always said, Ali>>>>>>SRR

 

[johncola]

Size changes a number of things about your performance besides what weight class you fight in. It makes you tire faster when you exert yourself fully, it makes you slower, adds risk to your techniques (from your opponent) therefore changing what is possible in the cage, etc. There is no way to isolate size from many other variables that represent important aspects of fighting.

That only makes the P4P question harder, it doesn't render it obsolete. It's only a hypothetical question anyway.

 

[Wayweary]

That only makes the P4P question harder, it doesn't render it obsolete. It's only a hypothetical question anyway.

It's something that you can think about, but you will pretty much never have a satisfying answer. The only way to come close to adequately approach the question is from the idea of divisional dominance, adjusted for the depth of the division (how many athletic people fight at that weight or could fight at that weight, largely). If you try to imagine how a fighter would be at a drastically different weight class, you are already failing miserably. And if we add gender into this equation, it becomes even more convoluted...

 

[Gamer2k4]

Since you're defining P4P incorrectly, it's no surprise you're opposed to it. Pound for pound doesn't refer to how everyone would fare if they were the same size; it simply seeks to quantify someone's success relative to his own size.

Let's use a simple example with objective data - weightlifting. If a 100 pound person can bench 200 pounds, he is pound for pound better than a 200 pound person who can bench 300 pounds (200% of body weight vs 150% of body weight). It does not mean that the 100 pound person could bench twice as much if he weighed twice as much; that's impossible to know. Pound for pound is relative to your own size, and your own size only.

 

[kikikhan]

Calm down Kiki. GOAT discussions are nothing more than a platform for a bunch of arguments that can never be settled.

Example: Your GOAT got subbed in a minute, pounded relentlessly by a HW who gets KO'd regularly lately, and KO'd by a MW.

O know you have plenty to retort with, but you get what I am saying. No matter anyone says, there's always someone who can step in and discount what they say. GOAT discussions are worthless. P4P discussions are beyond worthless.

You just spewed out a bunch of crap.

Did this happen during his reign?

He got subbed by the best sub master at HW, because he got stupid. He got his eye swollen shut by a 285 TRT BF (who is now TRTless) and SURVIVED the f*cking BF ful mount, because he got stupid and opened the second round with the most obvious haymaker ever and got taken down. He got sneaky TKOed by HW TRT Hendo (who's hand is labeled THE-H-Bomb FFS).


These are 3 great losses and are his only losses. after 10 years of excelence.

I want to throw up on you.

Fedor's losses are as good as they get. Tell me why do Fedor haters only use the smallest part of his career (the 3 losses), while they only talk about who the other "candidates" beat? Morons.

 

[BubbaH]

You just spewed out a bunch of crap.

Did this happen during his reign?

He got subbed by the best sub master at HW, because he got stupid. He got his eye swollen shut by a 285 TRT BF (who is now TRTless) and SURVIVED the f*cking BF ful mount, because he got stupid and opened the second round with the most obvious haymaker ever and got taken down. He got sneaky TKOed by HW TRT Hendo (who's hand is labeled THE-H-Bomb FFS).


These are 3 great losses and are his only losses. after 10 years of exelence.

I want to throw up on you.

Fedor's losses are as good as they get. Tell me why do Fedor haters only use the smallest part of his career (the 3 losses), while they only talk about who the other "candidates" beat? Morons.

Well, you're either trolling or stupid. (both?)

I don't really give a damn who he lost to, when, or where. All I was doing is pointing out things you would encounter in a pointless GOAT discussion. Thus the reason I call both GOAT discussions and P4P discussions pointless. Get it? I doubt it...

 

[kikikhan]

Well, you're either trolling or stupid. (both?)

I don't really give a damn who he lost to, when, or where. All I was doing is pointing out things you would encounter in a pointless GOAT discussion. Thus the reason I call both GOAT discussions and P4P discussions pointless. Get it? I doubt it...

No. You used trolling there.

There is nothing smart anyone can say against Fedor's claim as the GOAT.

It's not a pointless discussion when the answer is obvious.

Who is the HW and ergo the overal MMA GOAT? Fedor. Simple.

Who is the LHW GOAT? Jones. Simple.

Who is the MW GOAT? Anderson. Simple.

Who is the WW GOAT? GSP. Simple.

Who is the LW GOAT? Not so simple.

Who is the FW GOAT? Aldo.

Who is the babyweight GOAT. Mighty Mouse. Simple.

 

[BubbaH]

No. You used trolling there.

There is nothing smart anyone can say against Fedor's claim as the GOAT.

It's not a pointless discussion when the answer is obvious.

Who is the HW and ergo the overal MMA GOAT? Fedor. Simple.

Who is the LHW GOAT? Jones. Simple.

Who is the MW GOAT? Anderson. Simple.

Who is the WW GOAT? GSP. Simple.

Who is the LW GOAT? Not so simple.

Who is the FW GOAT? Aldo.

Who is the babyweight GOAT. Mighty Mouse. Simple.

I don't care who you think the so called GOAT in any division is. I really don't. It's your opinion and you're welcome to it. The only thing I was saying, and this will be the last time I say it, is that the GOAT discussions and P4P discussions are pointless. Because, no matter who you or anyone else claims to be the GOAT or whatever else for that matter, someone will always have a difference of opinion and an agreement on the subject will never be reached. Therefore those type discussions are nothing more than a bunch of worthless arguing that will never be settled.

Now, if you had asked me who I think is the best HW we have seen so far in MMA, I would have happily replied Fedor. But instead you just go on some rant about Fedor as if I had said something bad about him, which I didn't.

Maybe reading comprehension just isn't your thing. That seems to be a big thing around here anyway.

 

[AP_RESURRECTION]

the point is to create debates with no end so we can just keep talking and the media companies get hits

 

[Ozze]

I think the pound for pound is about acknowledging how good a guy is in different areas of the game like the striking, ground, wrestling, chin, heart, IQ, etc. It's like you give the guy a score in each of those and at the end you sum it up. Then you'll have an overall grade for each fighter.

 

[Y0cc3]

How could someone be more skilled if they have a terrible chin, endurance, speed, power, balance, and coordination? No one "gets a pass" in pound for pound. They simply apply the current skillset in a hypothetical where both fighters are the same size. Kyle Maynard may have been the best fighter to ever live if he had arms and legs, but that's not what we're talking about here.

-How thick neck and upper back you have, how short neck you have, how large skull and jaw you have, where your nerves are located, how your brain reacts to damage etc. is not a skill.
-How well your muscles use oxygen and how well your body uses energy isn't a skill.
-How well your body uses the stretch reflex, how well your body type is suited for producing speed and power, how many fast twitch fibers you have etc. is not a skill.
-How good anatomy you have for balance and body control etc. is not a skill.

So yes, you can be a glass jaw, slower, gas quicker, have less power, have worse balance and coordination than your opponent, but still be superior in terms of pure technique and skill.
But it doesn't matter whether you are more skilled if you get KTFO 999/1000. Fighting is not golf or something, it's physically very demanding sport and trying to neutralize size difference is just stupid.

 

[spid3yo]

Heavier weight classes require more physical abilities and gifts.

Smaller weight classes require more technique and skill.


No amount of lame parameters you try and set up will make your list more right.

 

[Y0cc3]

Heavier weight classes require more physical abilities and gifts.

Smaller weight classes require more technique and skill.


No amount of lame parameters you try and set up will make your list more right.

It's not measurable but sure, let's say that is always correct. It's still dumb to say that the lighter guy is the better fighter because he has the better technique. He would lose and that means that he were the lesser fighter (at least on that specific night).