Why p4p? (offensive to "real fans")

[Y0cc3]

I hope this doesn't get wastelanded. I'm not trolling or discrediting the smaller fighters, I am sincerely thinking and trying to broaden my horizon. I know some people might get angry but oh well...

So, p4p is based on neutralizing the size difference, right? It's made so that we can speculate who is the most skilled in fighting, right? But why only the size between weight classes is neutralized? Why is it acceptable to say that Mighty Mouse is better fighter than Stipe Miocic because Mighty Mouse would beat Stipe if Mighty Mouse was
6'4/245 lb., but it's not fine to say that Nick Diaz is better fighter than Georges St. Pierre because Nick Diaz would beat GSP if Nick Diaz was as strong, quick and coordinated as GSP? Isn't fighting eventually about who can beat who, not about who can throw nicer combinations?
Everything in fighting is based on genetics, size also. Being naturally 6'5, 230 lb. ripped is a gift just like being extremely flexible or coordinated. Size isn't anything more "unfair" than being gifted in any other department. Is Mayweather unfair because he is gifted with better fighting IQ than his opponents?

chin4chin, Jonathan Goulet the greatest fighter ever?
speed4speed, Roger Gracie the best fighter ever?
heart4heart, Overeem the greatest fighter ever?
reach4reach, Nurmagomedov the best fighter ever?
wrestling4wrestling, James Toney the greatest fighter ever?
striking4striking, Jake Shields the best fighter ever?
footwork4footwork+chin4chin+headmovement4headmovement+blocking4blocking+speed4speed+reactiontime4reactiontime, Bigfoot Silva the greatest evah?

 

[Steveston]

"Pound for pound is silly it's like debating who would win in a fight Superman or Batman who cares we are never going to know." - Chael P. Sonnen.

 

[Davemeddlehed]

I hope this doesn't get wastelanded. I'm not trolling or discrediting the smaller fighters, I am sincerely thinking and trying to broaden my horizon. I know some people might get angry but oh well...

So, p4p is based on neutralizing the size difference, right? It's made so that we can speculate who is the most skilled in fighting, right? But why only the size between weight classes is neutralized? Why is it acceptable to say that Mighty Mouse is better fighter than Stipe Miocic because Mighty Mouse would beat Stipe if Mighty Mouse was
6'4/245 lb., but it's not fine to say that Nick Diaz is better fighter than Georges St. Pierre because Nick Diaz would beat GSP if Nick Diaz was as strong, quick and coordinated as GSP? Isn't fighting eventually about who can beat who, not about who can throw nicer combinations?
Everything in fighting is based on genetics, size also. Being naturally 6'5, 230 lb. ripped is a gift just like being extremely flexible or coordinated. Size isn't anything more "unfair" than being gifted in any other department. Is Mayweather unfair because he is gifted with better fighting IQ than his opponents?

chin4chin, Jonathan Goulet the greatest fighter ever?
speed4speed, Roger Gracie the best fighter ever?
heart4heart, Overeem the greatest fighter ever?
reach4reach, Nurmagomedov the best fighter ever?
wrestling4wrestling, James Toney the greatest fighter ever?
striking4striking, Jake Shields the best fighter ever?
footwork4footwork+chin4chin+headmovement4headmovement+blocking4blocking+speed4speed+reactiontime4reactiontime, Bigfoot Silva the greatest evah?

Because the whole premise behind pound for pound is eliminating the size disadvantage. Of course Nick Diaz is a better fighter if you give him a better skill set, and more natural talent. The same could be said of every fighter in history. The point is to simply make every fighter the same size, hypothetically, and make it boil down to skill sets and talent.

You've kind of deviated from the concept of pound for pound, and into the realm of trying to create the perfect fighter. That's a distinction that needs to be made clear.

 

[Y0cc3]

"Pound for pound is silly it's like debating who would win in a fight Superman or Batman who cares we are never going to know." - Chael P. Sonnen.

I also find it kinda disrespectful. The heavyweights are the best fighters until proven otherwise and it's sad to see some 170 pounder act like he's the better fighter because he has better skills, better endurance, better speed and better coordination. Eh, no... If you'd get KTFO 99/100 you are not the better fighter.

 

[Y0cc3]

Because the whole premise behind pound for pound is eliminating the size disadvantage. Of course Nick Diaz is a better fighter if you give him a better skill set, and more natural talent. The same could be said of every fighter in history. The point is to simply make every fighter the same size, hypothetically, and make it boil down to skill sets and talent.

You've kind of deviated from the concept of pound for pound, and into the realm of trying to create the perfect fighter. That's a distinction that needs to be made clear.

But why is the size being neutralized? Jose Aldo/Conor McGregor might not be the most skilled guy in FW. There might be some guy ranked 200 in FW with record of 7-12-1 who is more SKILLED than anyone in the UFC but has a terrible chin, terrible endurance, terrible speed, terrible power, terrible balance, terrible coordination and so on. Is he the best fighter ever? If not, why isn't his lack of physical talent neutralized? Why doesn't he get a pass?
Why should anyone think that TJ Dillashaw is better fighter than Soa Palelei if TJ couldn't last a round with him?

 

[Post 2 Decision]

P4P plagues MMA and is just a ridiculous discussion about fantasy land.

Of course smaller fighters will be quicker and more agile compared to a bigger fighter who has more power. Comparing fighting styles between 2 guys in separate weight classes and coming up with 'who is better' is ridiculous.

 

[Ever Watchful]

P4P is ridiculous, fighters wouldn't be able to perform the same if they were bigger or smaller, their skillset is highly dependent on their size. You don't see HWs fighting like MM and you don't see FLWs consistently ending fights in the first round by brutal KO.

Just trying to arbitrarily eliminate "size" from the equation is incredibly ignorant.

 

[Dragon Punch]

I don't find it as offensive as I find it stupid. MM might be praised for his speed and cardio but he probably wouldn't move any faster than Werdum at HW.

 

[Son of Jamin]

P4P is more or less a marketing tool and an endless tirade of subjective speculations in order to kill time on forums.

 

[Dragon Punch]

GOAT is as stupid as P4P. Impossible to measure and the cause of endless arguments lol.

 

[Y0cc3]

I don't find it as offensive as I find it stupid. MM might be praised for his speed and cardio but he probably wouldn't move any faster than Werdum at HW.

I meant that this thread is offensive to the "real fans" who think that preferring MW-HW over lightweight or WMMA means you are meathead Just Bleed-bro.

 

[Slapchoppin]

"Pound for pound is silly it's like debating who would win in a fight Superman or Batman who cares we are never going to know." - Chael P. Sonnen.

they fought in an animated movie once and Batman won so...

 

[CajunOutlaw]

p4p is ridiculous. Besides, it's basically just the champs and goes in order of who has the most title defenses at this point. I lost interest in p4p rankings a long time ago.

 

[Post 2 Decision]

"Pound for pound is silly it's like debating who would win in a fight Superman or Batman who cares we are never going to know." - Chael P. Sonnen.

 

[Phrozenspite]

p4p also has problems because there are two main definitions that people use, and they never specify which. you have either the divisional dominance argument, or the hypothetical skill for skill if there was a HW version of mighty mouse in terms of skillset would he beat werdum. The latter is what a lot of people refer to and it's just not possible to argue. For example, would GSP be able to take down an Aldo that was his size? You're going to have people arguing on both sides, but there isn't anything to base it on. With divisional dominance you can go off of strength of schedule and the various points based systems.

 

[johncola]

I hope this doesn't get wastelanded. I'm not trolling or discrediting the smaller fighters, I am sincerely thinking and trying to broaden my horizon. I know some people might get angry but oh well...

So, p4p is based on neutralizing the size difference, right? It's made so that we can speculate who is the most skilled in fighting, right? But why only the size between weight classes is neutralized? Why is it acceptable to say that Mighty Mouse is better fighter than Stipe Miocic because Mighty Mouse would beat Stipe if Mighty Mouse was
6'4/245 lb., but it's not fine to say that Nick Diaz is better fighter than Georges St. Pierre because Nick Diaz would beat GSP if Nick Diaz was as strong, quick and coordinated as GSP? Isn't fighting eventually about who can beat who, not about who can throw nicer combinations?
Everything in fighting is based on genetics, size also. Being naturally 6'5, 230 lb. ripped is a gift just like being extremely flexible or coordinated. Size isn't anything more "unfair" than being gifted in any other department. Is Mayweather unfair because he is gifted with better fighting IQ than his opponents?

chin4chin, Jonathan Goulet the greatest fighter ever?
speed4speed, Roger Gracie the best fighter ever?
heart4heart, Overeem the greatest fighter ever?
reach4reach, Nurmagomedov the best fighter ever?
wrestling4wrestling, James Toney the greatest fighter ever?
striking4striking, Jake Shields the best fighter ever?
footwork4footwork+chin4chin+headmovement4headmovement+blocking4blocking+speed4speed+reactiontime4reactiontime, Bigfoot Silva the greatest evah?

The reason is that we can't see fighters who have different weights fight each other. There's no reason for the labels from your list because we can see those fights happen. We're never gonna see Jose Aldo vs Jon Jones so it's interesting to think about who'd be better if they were theoretically the same size. That's all it is.

 

[chaos_36]

Who has the better skills isn't exactly rocket science is it?

 

[aus101]

I also find it kinda disrespectful. The heavyweights are the best fighters until proven otherwise and it's sad to see some 170 pounder act like he's the better fighter because he has better skills, better endurance, better speed and better coordination. Eh, no... If you'd get KTFO 99/100 you are not the better fighter.

Fighters don't act like that. In terms of male bravado the lighter weight fighters (like perennial top 5 Flyweight Ian McCall) defer to larger fighters (like Ian did to HW Shaub on a fight companion). It's not like they are pushing the HW's around just asking for trouble like that school kid bully who got slammed.


It's not disrespectful to talk about the skill of smaller fighters, even in comparison to heavier fighters. If someone was to tell me about my countries top female powerlifters and how impressive they are; should I feel disrespected? Because I could bench the woman's record by the 11th grade.
The answer is of course, no. Compared to other guys my size my strength isn't notable, it's only inherent physical advantages that make me the "better" lifter. Just as it's inherent physical advantages that makes say Lawler lose to Werdum.

 

[Cooliox]

p4p means 'not really', but rather a possibility- in another fantasy dimension.

so if ur p4p number 1 in mma, means you're not really number 1.

In boxing it is at least more realistic because the greats move up weight. Pacman, Mayweather, Roy Jones... these guys went up multiple weight classes and beat bigger guys.

Here's something for you to consider.

Ronda Rousey and Roy Jones Jr competed at about the same weight in the olympics (154 & 156).

Ronda went on to become the 135 pound champion of the world, while Roy Jones went on to become the HW champion of the world.

 

[gravel]

An interesting thread. I always thought the 'Divisional Dominance' was the key consideration for P4P, but then we have the issue of a shallow division (125) vs a strong division (185). Also how do we measure the impact on the division when the champion is not fighting (135,145,170,205) so there is no clear answer. As others have said the HW champion is the number 1 fighter and the P4P rankings are just opinion.