International Why Norway — the poster child for electric cars — is having second thoughts

[Seano]

Yeah, the incentives are dumb. If anybody should get that shit, it's the people who don't own a car at all. Take all that rebate money, and put it into public transit, and let people who don't own a car ride for free. Don't know how feasible that all is, but if the plan was to lower the out carbon footprint, that's how you'd do it. Not just give money to people to drive an electric vehicle, that leaves their own footprint in different ways. Like, how are them batteries getting made and disposed of again? We don't talk about that...

Basically impossible in rural areas like where I live. There's no bus coming through my town any time soon. I'm minimum 20 miles away from basically everything.

 

[Boxiana]

I’ve lived in Oslo for 10 years and there is absolutely zero need for a car in the city unless you have some kind of disability - public transport is clean, regular and reliable.

Different story outside the city, but if I need a car I just hire one by the hour using one of the many apps.

And the government changing its stance on EVs is just a precursor to them removing the tax benefits they have enjoyed compared to ICE vehicles which essentially meant subsidizing those people wealthy enough to afford a car.

Your eyes would bleed if you knew the cost of car ownership here.

Edit: brand new bottom of the range VW golf is $37 500, of which 20% is registration tax. Petrol is $8 per gallon. Car insurance is expensive and there are toll roads everywhere (there is a political party with one policy to get rid of them), especially in cities. And you need winter tires.

 

[fungi]

A private luxury bus with a bar and a flat tv, full of floozies is public transportation

 

[Fluffernutter]

Cliffs:

- Too expensive, even with massive subsidies
- Very hard to get the materials needed
- Not enough recharge stations
- Range anxiety is still a thing
- Rare Earth metal mining is not green


Cliffs for the cliffs: It's not the panacea we were led to believe.

 

[Andy Capp]

Cliffs:

- Too expensive, even with massive subsidies
- Very hard to get the materials needed
- Not enough recharge stations
- Range anxiety is still a thing
- Rare Earth metal mining is not green


Cliffs for the cliffs: It's not the panacea we were led to believe.

Who is leading anyone to believe it's a panacea? Who the fuck is we?

 

[HereticBD]

Basically impossible in rural areas like where I live. There's no bus coming through my town any time soon. I'm minimum 20 miles away from basically everything.

There "could" be though, if they'd actually spend the money on getting it out there, instead of writing checks to people who buy an EV.

Not that I'm some anti-car nut, just saying that if they really wanted to put a serious dent in our collective carbon footprint, they'd be focusing on that kind of shit to get more people out of cars, and not some pie in sky "all electric" pipe dream, that everyone knows isn't realistic, and has it's own environmental issues.

 

[dirtypablo]

Cliffs:

- Too expensive, even with massive subsidies
- Very hard to get the materials needed
- Not enough recharge stations
- Range anxiety is still a thing
- Rare Earth metal mining is not green


Cliffs for the cliffs: It's not the panacea we were led to believe.

First of all, transportation only accounts for about 30% of total emissions, and that's all transportation including air and sea, so I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea that switching to electric vehicles would be a panacea. It's one required step out of many. Second, most of the rest of what he's complaining about is simply due to the fact that most of our industrial infrastructure currently runs on fossil fuels - of course an electric car isn't making a huge dent in emissions if its being powered by a coal plant, which is why the transition to EVs is just one of many required things that need to happen. Once we move to an infrastructure that is largely clean, those problems disappear. Third, as many posters have pointed out, we shouldn't be trying to replace all ICE vehicles with EVs, we should be trying to massively reduce the total number of vehicles on the road. Americans especially have been brainwashed to believe that we all need cars, (and our cities have been designed so that we need cars, all so you will be forced to buy one) but with proper city design and quality public transit, the overwhelming majority of people don't need a car. (80% of Americans live in urban areas - most of those people don't need a car).

Finally, when he says that this transition is going to take a long time, he is completely correct, which is why those who care about this issue are so adamant that not nearly enough is being done now. This isn't a transition that can happen quickly, and the transition itself will require using a massive amount of fossil fuels. Massive changes need to be forced right now, because the process is going to take multiple decades. Waiting until the effects get worse before we start taking this seriously is insanely stupid. Its like finding out you have cancer, but then waiting until its stage 3 to begin treating it seriously. It is most likely going to be too late to prevent absolute catastrophe.

 

[BlankaPresident]

The carbon footprint alone requires driving an electric vehicle 100k+ miles in order to merely break even with a gas powered car. The entire thing is a scam right now.

Not if most of your electric energy grid comes from renewables/nuclear. Not every country runs on coal.

EV adoption must come in paralel to clean energy and public transportation structure, it won't solve emissions alone. But it's still better than do nothing and let combustion engines guzzle gas forever.

 

[BlankaPresident]

Japan says hi.

Japan, South Korea, Australia and NZ are the other Europe.

 

[Andy Capp]

There "could" be though, if they'd actually spend the money on getting it out there, instead of writing checks to people who buy an EV.

Not that I'm some anti-car nut, just saying that if they really wanted to put a serious dent in our collective carbon footprint, they'd be focusing on that kind of shit to get more people out of cars, and not some pie in sky "all electric" pipe dream, that everyone knows isn't realistic, and has it's own environmental issues.

Does it feel weird to you when you come into a thread and say the same thing I already did? It feels weird to me.

 

[Andy Capp]

First of all, transportation only accounts for about 30% of total emissions, and that's all transportation including air and sea, so I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea that switching to electric vehicles would be a panacea. It's one required step out of many. Second, most of the rest of what he's complaining about is simply due to the fact that most of our industrial infrastructure currently runs on fossil fuels - of course an electric car isn't making a huge dent in emissions if its being powered by a coal plant, which is why the transition to EVs is just one of many required things that need to happen. Once we move to an infrastructure that is largely clean, those problems disappear. Third, as many posters have pointed out, we shouldn't be trying to replace all ICE vehicles with EVs, we should be trying to massively reduce the total number of vehicles on the road. Americans especially have been brainwashed to believe that we all need cars, (and our cities have been designed so that we need cars, all so you will be forced to buy one) but with proper city design and quality public transit, the overwhelming majority of people don't need a car. (80% of Americans live in urban areas - most of those people don't need a car).

Finally, when he says that this transition is going to take a long time, he is completely correct, which is why those who care about this issue are so adamant that not nearly enough is being done now. This isn't a transition that can happen quickly, and the transition itself will require using a massive amount of fossil fuels. Massive changes need to be forced right now, because the process is going to take multiple decades. Waiting until the effects get worse before we start taking this seriously is insanely stupid. Its like finding out you have cancer, but then waiting until its stage 3 to begin treating it seriously. It is most likely going to be too late to prevent absolute catastrophe.

 

[RoastBeast]

Not if most of your electric energy grid comes from renewables/nuclear. Not every country runs on coal.

EV adoption must come in paralel to clean energy and public transportation structure, it won't solve emissions alone. But it's still better than do nothing and let combustion enginee guzzle gas forever.

You'd be surprised at the amount of energy and destruction to the earth that is required to manufacture a vehicle from scratch. The cost isn't just in the ability to keep charging the vehicle. There is a massive cost before the vehicle even hits 1 mile. The Government doesn't want you to know this because they want you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside after dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that you think is clean, but really isn't much cleaner than a gas vehicle that's already on the road.

It's sort of like how the Government tricked the nation into eating copious amounts of bread and wheat because fat was the enemy and carbs were healthy. Took the nation a long time to wake up from that propaganda.

 

[Andy Capp]

I’ve lived in Oslo for 10 years and there is absolutely zero need for a car in the city unless you have some kind of disability - public transport is clean, regular and reliable.

Different story outside the city, but if I need a car I just hire one by the hour using one of the many apps.

And the government changing its stance on EVs is just a precursor to them removing the tax benefits they have enjoyed compared to ICE vehicles which essentially meant subsidizing those people wealthy enough to afford a car.

Your eyes would bleed if you knew the cost of car ownership here.

Edit: brand new bottom of the range VW golf is $37 500, of which 20% is registration tax. Petrol is $8 per gallon. Car insurance is expensive and there are toll roads everywhere (there is a political party with one policy to get rid of them), especially in cities. And you need winter tires.

And electric cars go through tires far more quickly than gas-powered cars due to the extra weight. For now, at least.

 

[Cole train]

Norways cool country, dig the mountains

 

[BlankaPresident]

You'd be surprised at the amount of energy and destruction to the earth that is required to manufacture a vehicle from scratch. The cost isn't just in the ability to keep charging the vehicle. There is a massive cost before the vehicle even hits 1 mile. The Government doesn't want you to know this because they want you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside after dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that you think is clean, but really isn't much cleaner than a gas vehicle that's already on the road.

It's sort of like how the Government tricked the nation into eating copious amounts of bread and wheat because fat was the enemy and carbs were healthy. Took the nation a long time to wake up from that propaganda.

I know they are costly to build. But including the carbon footprint for the EV and not for the ICE production is disingenuous, it's not like the gas cars are not being replaced and produced. Every year something like 70 millions ICE cars are being built and sold worldwide.

Most people who buy EVs are replacing their old cars anyway. It would be better it people just stuck to their current cars, but since they're going to buy new then EVs are the lesser of two evils in this situation.

 

[lifelessheap]

Small electric cars are cool and hyper efficient for around town driving and short commutes.

Electric trucks and large SUVs are stupid.

I have solar and a tiny Chevy Bolt EV. It is hilariously efficient. My solar panels are so slim and lightweight that they couldn't have been a massive burden on mother Earth.

Whatever.

This should not be a binary choice. Diesel, gas and electric all are needed and have their place. Fuck subsidies and artificial markets of all kinds.

Edit: I am 4,000 miles in with my Chevy. I haven't been to a gas station in the 6 months I've owned it. My electric bill went up 0.00 dollars. My ICE van was costing about 150 to 200 a month. So hey, I've saved at least a grand in gas and not burned 200+ gallons.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Thailand Announces Reduced Subsidies for EVs as Sales Boom
The Thai government is hoping to maintain the upward trajectory of EV sales while reducing pressure on its budget.

Sebastian Strangio

Thailand’s government yesterday approved a reduced package of subsidies for electric vehicles, in a bid to sustain the country’s current EV uptake while reducing budgetary pressures.

Narit Therdsteerasukdi, secretary general of the Thailand Board of Investment, told reporters that starting next year and ending in 2027, the government will offer a subsidy of up to 100,000 baht ($2,776) per EV, down from 150,000 baht ($4,165) currently, Reuters reported.

The subsidy scheme, which has been approved by the National Electric Vehicle Policy Committee and is estimated to cost the government around 3 billion baht ($83.2 million), will also include lower import duty and excise taxes, he added.

The subsidies, known as the EV 3.5 policy, are intended “to drive a sustained policy in supporting Thailand’s role as an electric vehicle hub in the region,” Narit said. “It aims to attract new investors to establish manufacturing bases in the country while urging existing entrepreneurs to transition into the electric vehicle industry.”

Government subsidies have helped to encourage the rapid uptake of EVs in Thailand. In the second quarter of this year, the country accounted for about half of Southeast Asia’s total EV sales, according to data from Counterpoint Research. BMI, the research arm of the ratings agency Fitch, recently estimated that Thailand’s EV penetration rate would reach 8.7 percent of all vehicles by the end of this year, a substantial increase from 3.8 percent in 2022.

Like several of its Southeast Asian neighbors, Thailand is keen to transform itself into a regional hub for EV manufacturing, building on its long-time status as the region’s leader in auto production. (The country is also the fourth-largest vehicle manufacturer in Asia.) The government aims to convert about 30 percent of its annual production of 2.5 million vehicles into EVs by 2030.

The government is preparing incentives to encourage more investment in electric battery and vehicle production, and to help established car manufacturers – predominantly Japanese giants like Toyota, Honda, and Isuzu – to convert their Thai factories to EV manufacturing facilities. It has also announced that it will soon offer tax breaks and grants to automakers who set up EV research and development centers in Thailand, or relocate their regional headquarters to the country.

So far, the country has scored considerable successes, particularly in attracting major Chinese EV manufacturers to the country. In March, China’s BYD broke ground on an EV factory in Rayong, south of Bangkok, which is expected to start production in 2024 and will have an annual capacity of 150,000 vehicles. In May, China’s Hozon New Energy Automobile will also set up a factory in Thailand to begin production of its NETA V model. Then, in August, Changan Automobile confirmed unofficial earlier reports by announcing that it would invest 1.83 billion yuan ($251 million) to set up a plant in Thailand with an annual capacity of 100,000 units.

All of these firms will join China’s Great Wall Motor, which acquired a factory from General Motors in 2020, which it intends to turn into a regional production center for EV and hybrid cars. The Thai government is also in talks with other Chinese firms including Geely and Chery, according to the Bangkok Post.

The government is hoping that these various incentives for vehicle producers and battery makers will reduce their costs, make EVs cheaper for Thai consumers, and hence allow for subsidies to be reduced.

“In the past two to three years after the government’s support, the rate of EV use in Thailand has greatly increased,” Narit said yesterday. “So support from the government will gradually reduce in line with the situation, in order not to cause too much of a burden on the budget.”

https://thediplomat.com/2023/11/thailand-announces-reduced-subsidies-for-evs-as-sales-boom/