Why no uchi-mata in BJJ competition?

[Drew Foster]

I'm curious to hear about what Camarillo says about the risk of a single leg, since uchi mata is, IMO, a Judoka's #1 defense against a single...

The roll over issue is really a weak argument. I think the problem is that over rotations are so common in competitive Judo nowadays that people assume over rotating is the way it's done. The reality is that the over rotation of a throw is a muscle memory thing. I've actually spent a good deal of time trying to undo some of my own muscle memory with harai goshi. Here's an older video of my throwing harai during practice...

http://hatredalive.com/nicks/mma/harai5.wmv

Here I am practicing in an effort to correct the over rotation. You can see me start to grasp the "unwinding" that has to take place around the 43 second mark.

http://hatredalive.com/nicks/mma/judo/vids/crashmat2.wmv

There is virtually zero chance of being rolled when done in that manner. If you don't want to be rolled, don't train to throw in a way that would allow you to be rolled.

That being said, I think one of the reasons you don't see it in BJJ more often is for the same reason that a lot of Judo schools have questionable ground games. It's not the most efficient way to train for competition. Uchi mata is not an easy throw to master. I have only recently, within the past 3 years or so, really been able to throw it effectively.. and I STILL don't hit it often in randori.

Dave Camarillo doesn't have a problem with either throw being done in BJJ, no matter what you might read hear. You might have to change up how you perform them during the entry, kuzushi, and finish, but the throws in and of themselves are fine.

I actually see a lot of Uchimata's in BJJ. I'm surprised this thread was made. They even did a takedowns DVD for the 2009 Mundial's and (not counting Roger, who always does Uchimata/Haraigoshi/Osotogari) there were at LEAST 5-6 Uchimata's that I remember being shown from just the black belt division.

 

[Drew Foster]

I'll try to explain for you, considering that you started training a bit of BJJ last year, and probably aren't very familiar with high level competitions.

Camarillo (which is both a very good BJJ and Judo black belt) talks about the RISKS OF A SINGLE LEG COUNTER IN BJJ. He does in his video instructional (which I highly recommend to you) and also addresses the lower stance compared to Judo. Of course he's not the only, I've trained with Carlos Lemos, a world champion, and he warned about giving the back during turning throws in BJJ; the same from other blackbelts.

Your videos are just practice, nothing more. Also unwinding a makikomi is MUCH different than avoiding back exposure or bottom positioning following an Uchi Mata.

Uchimata is a good and SAFE counter to a leg grab IN JUDO. You can do it in BJJ, but it's much more risky, so you have to be much better than your opponent and probably develop different grips and mechanic (Camarillo shows a ken-ken variation in his book).

The most successful turning throw in high level BJJ competition is the drop seoi nage, probably because of his speed and the chance to stop the roll through.

The single is a risk, but Dave and Dan also talk about using the Uchimata as a counter to the single.

 

[Drew Foster]

Uchi-mata @ 1:04


I think that they would be more common as counters, like Leo did in the match.

That was beautiful. They are extremely common as counters to the single.

 

[Luther]

That only happens if you do your uchimata very, very wrongly. You don't "stick out your leg" to do an uchimata. The leg kicks backward after you've already gotten your weight under him and rotated to throw him.

It is more difficult in BJJ to get your weight under him, because of the different stance and the ability to hold indefinitely grips (which is illegal in Judo).

Dave Camarillo doesn't have a problem with either throw being done in BJJ, no matter what you might read hear.

Drew I hope this comment isn't directed at me because, as I wrote, Dave even shows a variation of Uchi Mata for BJJ in his book Guerrilla Jiu-jitsu.

But IT is a FACT that Camarillo warns about further risks involved in doing turning trows in BJJ, and he mimics Uchi Mata in the DVD.

We are just explaining WHY Uchi Mata is less popular in BJJ than in Judo, even among competitors with strong stand-up.

I hope you agree with that.

 

[redaxe]

It is more difficult in BJJ to get your weight under him, because of the different stance and the ability to hold indefinitely grips (which is illegal in Judo).

Agreed.

But it's also harder to shoot for the legs in gi BJJ for the same reason.

The takedown game in gi BJJ is something that is underdeveloped IMHO and needs a lot of further research and development to figure out which types of takedowns are the most effective.

 

[PowerSource]

That was beautiful. They are extremely common as counters to the single.

Another alternative for the single leg grab is the sumi gaeshi (or hikkomi gaeshi) at 3:43. But again, there is the risk to land in 1/2 guard.

 

[Drew Foster]

It is more difficult in BJJ to get your weight under him, because of the different stance and the ability to hold indefinitely grips (which is illegal in Judo).



Drew I hope this comment isn't directed at me because, as I wrote, Dave even shows a variation of Uchi Mata for BJJ in his book Guerrilla Jiu-jitsu.

But IT is a FACT that Camarillo warns about further risks involved in doing turning trows in BJJ, and he mimics Uchi Mata in the DVD.

We are just explaining WHY Uchi Mata is less popular in BJJ than in Judo, even among competitors with strong stand-up.

I hope you agree with that.

I absolutely agree with you. I didn't mean to direct that one at you buddy.

 

[Drew Foster]

Another alternative for the single leg grab is the sumi gaeshi (or hikkomi gaeshi) at 3:43. But again, there is the risk to land in 1/2 guard.

That's true too.

I know this doesn't quite qualify as an Uchimata counter to a single, but here Genki Sudo drops to one knee to prevent being thrown and Dan Camarillo does a beautiful Uchimata to armlock.


full match below. BJ Penn doing commentary for the camcorder for the win!

 

[Drew Foster]

That only happens if you do your uchimata very, very wrongly. You don't "stick out your leg" to do an uchimata. The leg kicks backward after you've already gotten your weight under him and rotated to throw him.

Exactly. The number one most common problem people (even good Judo guys) have with Uchimata is that they believe the lifting leg is the most important part of the throw.

It isn't.

Just like redaxe says, and in this GIF....

"What is you leg reaping in Uchimata?"

The correct answer is nothing. Same with Haraigoshi. If you do the throw properly, your body movement and hip is enough to throw, the leg lifts and simply assists, adding extra height and rotation for the opponent's fall.

Granted, there are plenty of Uchimata variations that involve strict leg-on-leg contact. But in the typical, "big" version of Uchimata where your hips come in and there is strong chest-to-chest contact, the main throwing action is in the body and hips. The lifting leg is there to close the deal. As for the contact point, you can hit the close inner thigh, the far inner thigh, or go straight up the middle of their legs. Anywhere the leg goes, as long as it's between their legs, can be an Uchimata.

Sorry about the tangent.

 

[Drew Foster]

Skip to 1:50. Once again, not exactly a counter to a single leg, but the throwing motion is the same, and most Uchimatas against a single will look like this:

 

[MUFC]

Cyborg vs Ceconi had 3-4 epic Uchimata attempts (2009 Mundials, quarter finals).

 

[nerraw]

If you throw while grabbing the belt or with the underhook, is it still considered an uchi-mata?

 

[Drew Foster]

If you throw while grabbing the belt or with the underhook, is it still considered an uchi-mata?

Yessir! I often throw with underhooks and/or overhooks, especially in no-gi. In the gi, I usually grab the high collar or lapel. The high-collar is good for taller people, but it really gives away that you are probably only going for a Uchimata, Haraigoshi, Hanegoshi, or Osotogari. If you set up an Uchimata with an Ouchi, Kouchi, etc, it's less believable if you already have the high-collar grip.

I don't grab over-the-back/belt for Uchimata, but I do use it for Haraigoshi. It works fine for both though.

 

[PowerSource]

If you throw while grabbing the belt or with the underhook, is it still considered an uchi-mata?

That will be a variation of uchi mata. You should also learn the text book uchi mata and then learn the "competition variations of uchi mata" and any other technique for that matter. So, when you are demonstrating you can disclosure if it is text book or a variation.

 

[Drew Foster]

That will be a variation of uchi mata. You should also learn the text book uchi mata and then learn the "competition variations of uchi mata" and any other technique for that matter. So, when you are demonstrating you can disclosure if it is text book or a variation.

I agree.

It is very important to have a solid Uchimata first, before going into unusual grips and finishes.

The thing is.... a lot of people don't always agree on what a typical Uchimata is. So to be on the safe side, I learned the big, hip version of the through, as well as the nage-no-kata turning version.

To me those are the most important ones to learn first.

 

[PowerSource]

I agree.

It is very important to have a solid Uchimata first, before going into unusual grips and finishes.

The thing is.... a lot of people don't always agree on what a typical Uchimata is. So to be on the safe side, I learned the big, hip version of the through, as well as the nage-no-kata turning version.

To me those are the most important ones to learn first.

Cool, I see you know your judo stuff!

 

[bnosam]

Cool, I see you know your judo stuff!

Yeah he does, Drew is a cool helpful fellow. He helps balance the trolls/prick posts made by me.

 

[lechien]

I've been watching loads of films during an injury break instead of rolling and I've noticed that while singles and doubles and even fireman's carries are popular for BJJ competition, i don't see uchi mata much.

Its probably one of the most popular ippon generating throws in competitive judo today. Why don't we see it more?

Is it because of IBJJF rules (vs the IJF ruleset--old or new)?

I know guys like Xande and Jacare use the drop seoi nage a lot but i only see an occasional other throw: o soto gari or a kouchi gari or something...

Go and do a Uchi mata on a BJJ competition guy and you will find out quickly why it is hardly used.

 

[fourfif**]

I still don't understand what the risk with the single is. I use/have used uchi mata to counter a single any time I'm grappling. I've used it successfully against both wrestlers and BJJ players in a wide variety of formats, including no gi. The video above is reasonable example.

Yup. I think that video says it all. It's a great counter to a single.

 

[fourfif**]

Go and do a Uchi mata on a BJJ competition guy and you will find out quickly why it is hardly used.

Looks like it worked in the high level bjj comp video posted.