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Why no uchi-mata in BJJ competition?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by LegLockUnicorn, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. LegLockUnicorn

    LegLockUnicorn White Belt

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    I've been watching loads of films during an injury break instead of rolling and I've noticed that while singles and doubles and even fireman's carries are popular for BJJ competition, i don't see uchi mata much.

    Its probably one of the most popular ippon generating throws in competitive judo today. Why don't we see it more?

    Is it because of IBJJF rules (vs the IJF ruleset--old or new)?

    I know guys like Xande and Jacare use the drop seoi nage a lot but i only see an occasional other throw: o soto gari or a kouchi gari or something...
     
  2. nefti

    nefti Red Belt

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    fear of over rotation and landing on the bottom after the throw
     
  3. J Sho

    J Sho Green Belt

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    Roger likes Uchi Mata
     
  4. Dake

    Dake Blue Belt

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    I've always thought ippon seoinage would be pretty easy to turn into a no-gi throw, but to be fair I've never tried it.
     
  5. Luther

    Luther Green Belt

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    Agree, in Judo you land it and it's over: either you score or the referee stand up after a few seconds.

    Because of the absence of ippon and time limits on the ground, in BJJ they can take your back or you can finish on bottom half guard. You can also finish on top half guard (on the other side, like in a backstep pass) or throw clean the guy.

    Another risk is the single leg, Dave Camarillo points this out too.

    Some BJJ competitor have enough confidence to use Uchi Mata, especially against lesser able opponent: Roger and Royler Gracie, Megaton come to mind.

    Among the sherdogger's Balto uses it.

    In summary Uchi Mata is more risky in BJJ than Judo, and consequently less frequently used.
     
  6. RacerX

    RacerX Orange Belt

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    As was mentioned, some throws are going to be more dangerous in BJJ for the thrower than they would be in Judo, especially when the thrower is not very skilled. Then consider how much more common wrestlers are in the US compared with judoka and how many BJJ people have wrestled. Single and double legs are almost instinctive (I'm not saying good ones are), which is one reason the new IJF rule against shooting is bad for Judo.

    Having said that, uchi mata and other Judo trhows can be very effective when the competition doesn't understand them. You see this in MMA fairly often. And if you pick the right throws (uchi mata being one), you can often land in side control.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  7. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    I'm curious to hear about what Camarillo says about the risk of a single leg, since uchi mata is, IMO, a Judoka's #1 defense against a single...

    The roll over issue is really a weak argument. I think the problem is that over rotations are so common in competitive Judo nowadays that people assume over rotating is the way it's done. The reality is that the over rotation of a throw is a muscle memory thing. I've actually spent a good deal of time trying to undo some of my own muscle memory with harai goshi. Here's an older video of my throwing harai during practice...

    http://hatredalive.com/nicks/mma/harai5.wmv

    Here I am practicing in an effort to correct the over rotation. You can see me start to grasp the "unwinding" that has to take place around the 43 second mark.

    http://hatredalive.com/nicks/mma/judo/vids/crashmat2.wmv

    There is virtually zero chance of being rolled when done in that manner. If you don't want to be rolled, don't train to throw in a way that would allow you to be rolled.

    That being said, I think one of the reasons you don't see it in BJJ more often is for the same reason that a lot of Judo schools have questionable ground games. It's not the most efficient way to train for competition. Uchi mata is not an easy throw to master. I have only recently, within the past 3 years or so, really been able to throw it effectively.. and I STILL don't hit it often in randori.
     
  8. Luther

    Luther Green Belt

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    I'll try to explain for you, considering that you started training a bit of BJJ last year, and probably aren't very familiar with high level competitions.

    Camarillo (which is both a very good BJJ and Judo black belt) talks about the RISKS OF A SINGLE LEG COUNTER IN BJJ. He does in his video instructional (which I highly recommend to you) and also addresses the lower stance compared to Judo. Of course he's not the only, I've trained with Carlos Lemos, a world champion, and he warned about giving the back during turning throws in BJJ; the same from other blackbelts.

    Your videos are just practice, nothing more. Also unwinding a makikomi is MUCH different than avoiding back exposure or bottom positioning following an Uchi Mata.

    Uchimata is a good and SAFE counter to a leg grab IN JUDO. You can do it in BJJ, but it's much more risky, so you have to be much better than your opponent and probably develop different grips and mechanic (Camarillo shows a ken-ken variation in his book).

    The most successful turning throw in high level BJJ competition is the drop seoi nage, probably because of his speed and the chance to stop the roll through.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  9. PowerSource

    PowerSource Judo and BJJ Black Belt

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    Usually, you want to avoid any throw that will leave you vulnerable for 1/2 guard which is the case of uchimata if not performed correctly in particular if tori loses his balance at the end. It is a difficult throw and it has different variations such as ken ken uchimata.
     
  10. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    I've done one and nearly landed in a bad position, so I'll be avoiding them from now one.
     
  11. Throatpoker

    Throatpoker Black Belt

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    Uchi-mata @ 1:04


    I think that they would be more common as counters, like Leo did in the match.
     
  12. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    I still don't understand what the risk with the single is. I use/have used uchi mata to counter a single any time I'm grappling. I've used it successfully against both wrestlers and BJJ players in a wide variety of formats, including no gi. The video above is reasonable example.

    Is there a video demonstrating the single counter to uchi mata?

    My videos are just practice because practice is how you develop the muscle memory to unwind in big throws to avoid the roll-over. I'm not sure what your point was with mentioning that.

    Thanks for responding though. I have a lot of respect for the Camarillo brothers, and I certainly should pick up some of their stuff, as their "Gorilla" jiujitsu is very much in line with how we train.
     
  13. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    I also use uchimata to counter the single. Even when I initiate the throw, I use a hopping or 'can can' version. Its not as pretty sometimes, but they crumble and I end up in a nice back-step pass position.
     
  14. Luther

    Luther Green Belt

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    Wow, awesome video, thanks for having posted.

    On the first attempt (1:04) it can be clearly seen that Shaolin tries to re-counter the Uchi-Mata rolling over Leo, but his quickness it's incredible, and he posts the left leg.

    Shaolin tries other 4 single legs, but Leo doesn't work Uchi Mata anymore, and tries different counters.

    Also there is a nice sleeve grip break with knee by Shaolin at 2:45.


    @ Darkslide632: Camarillo points out that the lower stance in BJJ makes it easier to stuff the Uchi with a single leg grip (because you have lesser penetration), dragging you to the ground. To overcome this you have to over commit risking the roll over, and finishing on the bottom. In Judo you hold on and wait for restart, in BJJ you can loose the match.

    The comment about your Judo practice is because it's irrelevant to what happens in BJJ comps (what the TS asked).

    Other than that I can only suggest you to buy the excellent Position Impossible DVD by Camarillo, in which he explicitly talks about those aspects.

    Take care.
     
  15. bnosam

    bnosam Green Belt

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    Anyone have a video of the uchi mata counter from a single leg please?
     
  16. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Keep in mind guys, if you judo-throw your opponent but you over-rotate and end up on bottom, you still get 2 points and your opponent only gets an advantage.

     
  17. MonkeyNuts!

    MonkeyNuts! Rear Naked Poker

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    I love uchimata but I've been caught in single legs from it. Simply put, if your kuzushi isn't spot on, you've just basically stuck your leg out for them. They cinch down on the leg and get some head/shoulder pressure, and you're in a precarious position.

    Still love it though, as an attack or counter.
     
  18. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    That only happens if you do your uchimata very, very wrongly. You don't "stick out your leg" to do an uchimata. The leg kicks backward after you've already gotten your weight under him and rotated to throw him.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. MonkeyNuts!

    MonkeyNuts! Rear Naked Poker

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    Of course, it's an upper reap after all. I just meant that if you don't set it up properly, "sticking out your leg" is the basically the result (i'd say about at frame 3-5 of that animated gif).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  20. mikecello

    mikecello ...in bed belt

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    I seriously can't speak for anyone else so I couldn't tell you why they avoid judo throws in BJJ competition. Although I come from a Judo background and the last thing I ever want to do to a guy with a fair amount of BJJ is take a risk at a bad situation where I fall forward and give up my back.

    I like 'easy' when I roll. Less complicated maneuvers seem to work better at full speed. Double legs and single legs are easy compared to uchi-mata so that's my go to.
     

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