Why no uchi-mata in BJJ competition?

[Deleted member 3729]

Uchi-mata is hard to get right.

It took me years to get it down pat. BJJers don't spend years on learning throws, they focus on basic takedowns like singles/doubles UNLESS they have someone who also teaches judo. Hence - you don't see it a lot in competition until you get to the higher levels (where the top guys probably cross-train anyway).

There is also the risk of over-rotation but I suppose any throw not executed properly has the risk of losing the thrower in a poor position.

This

It's the hardest throw in judo to get right.

Good book: Amazon.com: Uchimata (Masterclass Techniques Series) (9780951845516): Hitoshi Sugai: Books

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Uchi-mata=money

 

[Darkslide632]

This

It's the hardest throw in judo to get right.

Good book: Amazon.com: Uchimata (Masterclass Techniques Series) (9780951845516): Hitoshi Sugai: Books

Come on... Uchi mata the hardest throw in Judo to get right? I can think of plenty of other throws more difficult than uchi mata. Sumi Otoshi and uki otoshi come to mind immediately, but there are plenty of others.

Let's not go overboard.

I think one of the biggest problems too is that when people cross train they approach things wrong. They notice that Judo guys are good at throwing, which is true. They also notice that BJJ guys are good on the ground, which is also true. Then they deduce that a Judo throwing strategy plus a BJJ ground strategy will be unstoppable in either sport. That is totally wrong.

If you take Judo techniques and strategies straight out of competition, most of them will fail miserably in BJJ competition. Likewise, if you take BJJ techniques and strategies straight out of competition, they will fail miserably in Judo. The benefit of cross training is learning the underlying concepts and then applying them in a relevant way to the particular situation you are in.

You need to learn the techniques of Judo when you train Judo (otherwise how else will you improve?) But learning the techniques is not the underlying goal. You really want to ultimately learn the concepts of Judo. You want to learn how to unbalance an opponent, how to time your entry correctly to take advantage of that moment, and how to throw your opponent in the most efficient way possible. Once you learn those, you can build a base of techniques for BJJ that differ from Judo competition techniques but still use good fundamentals. It works the same way in reverse when you try to apply BJJ to Judo competition groundwork.

Yes. Exactly. I've been preaching about the fundamental principles and the need to truly understand them and implement them to be successful, and you hit the nail right on the head. The techniques exist in a number of different arts. What sets certain arts apart are the fundamental concepts that drive them.

 

[Throatpoker]

The benefit of cross training is learning the underlying concepts and then applying them in a relevant way to the particular situation you are in.

Sage

 

[spiderguardman]

Uchi mata is probably my second or third best takedown, i always use a overhook/whizzer so getting my back exposed is not a problem.

 

[Carrera26]

This

It's the hardest throw in judo to get right.

Good book: Amazon.com: Uchimata (Masterclass Techniques Series) (9780951845516): Hitoshi Sugai: Books

It's one of those throws where it's not all that hard to get, but it is hard to get right.

It's far from the hardest though, which in addition to Uki and Sumi Otoshi would be Harai Tsurikomi Goshi and Hane Goshi. (Real Hane Goshi, not Uchi Mata with a bent leg, they're different!!!)

3:31 of gorgeous Uchi Mata


But as has been said, a perfectly done Judo throw isn't always the perfect application for BJJ.

 

[Deleted member 3729]

Come on... Uchi mata the hardest throw in Judo to get right? I can think of plenty of other throws more difficult than uchi mata. Sumi Otoshi and uki otoshi come to mind immediately, but there are plenty of others.

I meant of the commonly used throws that work on people who know what they're doing.

 

[Drew Foster]

This

It's the hardest throw in judo to get right.

Good book: Amazon.com: Uchimata (Masterclass Techniques Series) (9780951845516): Hitoshi Sugai: Books

That's still one of my favorite books I've ever bought. Everyone should own it, whether you do BJJ or Judo! I even have an extra copy, if someone wants it.

This is getting into minutia, as they're cousins, but Hanegoshi IMVeryHO is the hardest throw to do right in Judo. You have 7th Dans running around teaching Hanegoshi completely incorrect. People think it's all about where you place the leg, where in reality it's all about the springing hip. I've heard the saying so many times it's incredible, "When you can do Hanegoshi, you are a Shodan (black belt)."

Anyway, that's another thread.

 

[Drew Foster]

It's one of those throws where it's not all that hard to get, but it is hard to get right.

It's far from the hardest though, which in addition to Uki and Sumi Otoshi would be Harai Tsurikomi Goshi and Hane Goshi. (Real Hane Goshi, not Uchi Mata with a bent leg, they're different!!!)

3:31 of gorgeous Uchi Mata


But as has been said, a perfectly done Judo throw isn't always the perfect application for BJJ.

AH, I posted my last thing before reading yours. I should have said what you did. The REAL Hanegoshi. Not a bent leg Uchimata. I said that SO many people think Hane is about where your leg is placed and how. It isn't. It's about the hip spring action. Just like with Harai and Uchimata, the leg is simply a follow through.

GREAT post and GREATER video.

KOSEI INOUE

 

[redaxe]

I meant of the commonly used throws that work on people who know what they're doing.

Yeah I agree, uchimata is much harder to master compared to seoinage, haraigoshi, ogoshi, or any of the common leg trip/reap type throws. It's a very technical throw.

 

[Rod1]

I think one of the biggest problems too is that when people cross train they approach things wrong. They notice that Judo guys are good at throwing, which is true. They also notice that BJJ guys are good on the ground, which is also true. Then they deduce that a Judo throwing strategy plus a BJJ ground strategy will be unstoppable in either sport. That is totally wrong.

If you take Judo techniques and strategies straight out of competition, most of them will fail miserably in BJJ competition. Likewise, if you take BJJ techniques and strategies straight out of competition, they will fail miserably in Judo. The benefit of cross training is learning the underlying concepts and then applying them in a relevant way to the particular situation you are in.

You need to learn the techniques of Judo when you train Judo (otherwise how else will you improve?) But learning the techniques is not the underlying goal. You really want to ultimately learn the concepts of Judo. You want to learn how to unbalance an opponent, how to time your entry correctly to take advantage of that moment, and how to throw your opponent in the most efficient way possible. Once you learn those, you can build a base of techniques for BJJ that differ from Judo competition techniques but still use good fundamentals. It works the same way in reverse when you try to apply BJJ to Judo competition groundwork.
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This, a million time this.


When i came to BJJ, the standup game was very different my tokui was not as effective, there was more stalling and guard pulling. So it wasn't as effective.

So i grabbed a few guys and told them i would teach them judo and used them to spar and test techniques, anything that worked for BJJ i kept anything that didn't i shunned, i found that some techniques i didn't liked doing in judo were better for BJJ, so i went back to my judo club and asked the instructor to train me into the competitive versions of them.

My game has improved for both BJJ and Judo.

Judo is "Maximum efficiency and minimum effort" so that's the mentality i use to approach BJJ, so in a way im doing Judo in BJJ.

 

[Luther]

as per Drew's comment, I fail to see the danger in getting caught with a single leg on a single leg counter. We're going to have to just agree to completely disagree.

You are sticking with just one aspect of the overall explanation to why in BJJ uchi mata is less used compared to other throws. Also you fail to understand it because you look at it by the wrong point of view: it's not that uchi mata is more dangerous when employed as a single leg counter.

Uchi mata is more dangerous in BJJ because:
- it's more difficult to get good hip penetration given the lower stance and attitude (everyone is low to counter guard jump/pull, single and doubles, now illegal in judo)
- if you fail he can use the leg to drag you down
- if you fail you can't just turtle and wait for the referee to stand you up (like in judo)
- even if you succeed you need to watch for a rollover that can put you on the bottom of half guard

It's not that you CAN'T do uchi mata in BJJ, but given the more forgiving rules of BJJ (basically you can bend and stiff arm and grip and fight on the ground as long as you want), its overall utility is lower.

Personally I agree with the observations of world class athletes (Camarillo, Lemos) and hope this summary puts things in perspective.

 

[Drew Foster]

You are sticking with just one aspect of the overall explanation to why in BJJ uchi mata is less used compared to other throws. Also you fail to understand it because you look at it by the wrong point of view: it's not that uchi mata is more dangerous when employed as a single leg counter.

Uchi mata is more dangerous in BJJ because:
- it's more difficult to get good hip penetration given the lower stance and attitude (everyone is low to counter guard jump/pull, single and doubles, now illegal in judo)
- if you fail he can use the leg to drag you down
- if you fail you can't just turtle and wait for the referee to stand you up (like in judo)
- even if you succeed you need to watch for a rollover that can put you on the bottom of half guard

It's not that you CAN'T do uchi mata in BJJ, but given the more forgiving rules of BJJ (basically you can bend and stiff arm and grip and fight on the ground as long as you want), its overall utility is lower.

Personally I agree with the observations of world class athletes (Camarillo, Lemos) and hope this summary puts things in perspective.

I certainly can't argue with this logic.

 

[Rod1]

- it's more difficult to get good hip penetration given the lower stance and attitude (everyone is low to counter guard jump/pull, single and doubles, now illegal in judo)

That's what kuzushi and tsukuri are for, Judo itself its based on kuzushi and tsukuri.

- if you fail he can use the leg to drag you down

If he grabs the leg in anyway, you can use leg strength to finish the move.

- if you fail you can't just turtle and wait for the referee to stand you up (like in judo)

Its very hard to turtle after failed uchimata, but that's a good point.

- even if you succeed you need to watch for a rollover that can put you on the bottom of half guard

This is a valid remark.

It's not that you CAN'T do uchi mata in BJJ, but given the more forgiving rules of BJJ (basically you can bend and stiff arm and grip and fight on the ground as long as you want), its overall utility is lower.

Agreed, but the thing i found the hardest was not executing BJJ, but that people would wrap around the leg when thrown i i landed on top halfguard, which is nice, but if i had the kuzushi for uchimata, i could do harai instead which reaps both legs and give me side control.

Personally I agree with the observations of world class athletes (Camarillo, Lemos) and hope this summary puts things in perspective.

Haven't seen their observations, but i think their observations are a little biased considering their careers in judo are nowhere near close to their careers in BJJ.

I found that uchimata wasn't a good technique for BJJ mainly due to the possibility of uke wrapping around the leg when thrown.
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[CyberFreq]

Just thought I'd add my $.02...

I use different Uchi-mata variants for nogi and gi.

In gi, I like to grip the belt (and have the nearside underhook) with a sleeve grip on the far arm (close to the wrist area). For nogi, wrist control on the far arm and an overhook on the near arm. Both are money.

Typically, I only go for the Uchimata if I find myself in the clinch a lot. And not grip-fighting, true Greco style clinching with over/under, double unders, pinch tie, etc.

 

[nefti]

Haven't seen their observations, but i think their observations are a little biased considering their careers in judo are nowhere near close to their careers in BJJ.

Dave camarillio was never a champion in bjj but he was a very high lvl second generation judoka in the us who has trained with the best in japan. The question you should be asking is "if such an experienced and accomplished judoka who has trained in bjj for almost 10 years feel this way, why do i dismiss his opinion so easily?". After all, compared to their bjj/judo accomplishments, your's must not even compare.