Why isn’t BJ Penn in the GOAT conversation?

Probably the only fighter on the top 10 GOAT list that always folds under adversity.
 
He was a legend in the sport but the last 10 years or so have nearly overshadowed all of his heroic feats.
 
jx820 said:
Penn had a few things that kept him out of the discussion. I LOVED Penn, he was absolute must see TV for years, but:
  1. For most of his career the top talent in his division was split up across multiple organizations
  2. He didn't have a lot of title defenses.
  3. He lost a lot of his big fights
  4. He stuck around for years too long and became a tragic figure
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Good points. Also, regardless of people saying him vs Diego was his prime, I think a huge section of his prime, his true prime of age and motivation, was spent when the ufc folded its lw division and he had to move up, then bounced around doing fights in Japan and rotr at mw and openweight. Even then he was pudgy and lazy, and had bad performances, but could get away with a lot due to his age and not drifting too far away from his roots, which was top position, heavy smashing bjj. Ik people say it time to time, but seriously, he won the fucking worlds in bjj! Why he turned into a counterpunching boxer is strictly a testimony to his natural ability in boxing
 
mirko>anyone said:
He didn't beat the #1 all time WW. That statement alone tells me you're delusional.

Penn got beat THREE times by a featherweight at LW. You see, we can all paint narratives we want. This one is actually kinda true.

Moving up with mixed results does not make him LW GOAT. That division has evolved quite a bit. Penn slowed down in fights when he wasn't fighting Joe Stevenson or Diego Sanchez. He got beat by Jens fucking Pulver in his prime. Stop.
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Hughes was the #1 WW all time when BJ beat him.

Penn got robbed in the Edgar 1 fight, but he lost to LW Edgar twice and FW Edgar once.

And this isn't about LW GOAT, so him moving up from LW and having wins as high as MW in his prime years is significant. People on this site go on and on about how good Fitch was, yet BJ was outwrestling him for 2 rounds and it ended in a draw.

And who's 4th MMA fight has ever been their prime other than maybe Lesnar?

You have a 2007 account, you should know how stupid and ridiculous you sound
 
BJ peaked very highly, but simply lacks longevity and a list of top wins on par with the first two tiers of greats, especially within a weight class.

A lot of that is a function of hopping around weight classes, and some of it is being fairly lazy (for a pro athlete) in terms of conditioning and taking care of himself...which showed once his natural gifts started to fade out a bit.

He should have stayed at 155 once it was established, and ruled over it with an iron fist and been the 155 version of Anderson or GSP.

His legacy would be stronger today if he had. But that's enough Monday morning quarterbacking...he's still obviously a legend and worthy of great respect as fighter.
 
Mamou said:
Hughes was the #1 WW all time when BJ beat him.

Penn got robbed in the Edgar 1 fight, but he lost to LW Edgar twice and FW Edgar once.

And this isn't about LW GOAT, so him moving up from LW and having wins as high as MW in his prime years is significant. People on this site go on and on about how good Fitch was, yet BJ was outwrestling him for 2 rounds and it ended in a draw.

And who's 4th MMA fight has ever been their prime other than maybe Lesnar?

You have a 2007 account, you should know how stupid and ridiculous you sound
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He isn’t the LW goat at all, nor is he a candidate for overall GOAT.
He didn’t get robbed against Edgar.

eat pipe
 
IMO he’s not in the goat conversation. He’s probably one of the most underachieving fighters ever. The potential was there but he just didn’t live up to it. He is absolutely a legend and deserves respect for fighting the guys he did, win or lose.
 
Being unmotivated is a flaw but nuthuggers treat it as a positive. "Look how good BJ is even if he was unmotivated most of the time." To be in the GOAT conversation, you have to be motivated. You cant coast.

Imagine a world renowned surgeon scheduled to operate on you and then you learn he is not motivated.
 
mirko>anyone said:
He isn’t the LW goat at all, nor is he a candidate for overall GOAT.
He didn’t get robbed against Edgar.

eat pipe
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Great rebuttal, tool. 13 years on this site and you haven't learned a thing.
 
he shoulda retired and stayed retired a long time ago. but it's whatever. once guys start falling off, i no longer count the losses they get against their legacy.

even if i don't count all his losses, the fact he dabbled in so many different weight classes and never committed to one was what ultimately killed a lot of his GOAT talk. he gave us glimpses of how great his potential was but he never fully fulfilled it imo. part of that was the landscape of the sport at the time with the LW division in UFC being killed off and BJ pretty much floating in limbo fighting anyone that would sign. but the other part of that was also BJ's wanderlust and eagerness to find "the next big thing" to conquer, instead of settling down in a weight class and systematically dismantling it opponent by opponent, he set out to do spectacular one off type fights.

while GSP's work ethic, focus and discipline is insane and most definitely contributed to his greatness. i feel BJ's greatness comes from the fact that he lacked those things and STILL could win. there's something special about somebody who's just wild and living life like a gunslinger, breaking all the rules and still succeeding.
 
He is right outside the top 5, but those 5 are very hard to beat out of their seats

-Fedor
-Silva
-GSP
-Jones
-Aldo

Idk the order though....
 
Because Georges won the fight you claim he was robbed in and you are an idiot
 
TriangleMonkey said:
He is right outside the top 5, but those 5 are very hard to beat out of their seats

-Fedor
-Silva
-GSP
-Jones
-Aldo

Idk the order though....
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How is Aldo the Greatest 145lb fighter of All Time when Conor slept him in 13 seconds and beat Max Holloway with a broken bone?
 
The Chosen said:
How is Aldo the Greatest 145lb fighter of All Time when Conor slept him in 13 seconds and beat Max Holloway with a broken bone?
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Lol use your brain.

And what broken bone do you speak of?
 
cause he got ko'ed by random fat dude in hawaiian bar. didn't he almost beat his wife/gf to death also...
 
You take the whole spectrum of the career into consideration. Probably one of the best naturally skilled fighters of all time - but no dedication or work ethic and as fighters evolved he just had no way of keeping up.

I also question his motives for moving up as just too lazy to cut weight and conditio himself properly and not so much to test himself
 
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Penn’s GOAT claims rest mostly on fights he didn’t win but was competitive in (GSP 1, Fitch, Frankie 1, Machida)

that is all you really need to know about how seriously to take the discussion

also, the “Penn would have dominated 155 his entire career” nicely ignores that during his first UFC run he twice failed to win the 155 title (Pulver & Uno)

I have no idea why he wasn’t fighting in Pride 160 division when he left UFC. Either he preferred moral victories being fat or PRIDE didn’t want him (only reason would be to protect Gomi)

Penn’s champ run at 155 in UFC was weak on competition since the division was being reestablished

you have to be really, really selective to view Penn as GOAT candidate

having said all that, he was absolutely amazing at his peak & put in some mind boggling performances. I personally thought he was best at 155 for years

Hughes 1 & GSP 1 were epic performances
 
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