Why isn’t BJ Penn in the GOAT conversation?

MescalineDreams said:
Regardless of his record post Prime
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This shit matters, tho. He tarnished his legacy taking all these fights at the end and getting embarassed in nearly every one of them. Legacy is your career as a whole, these fights are part of his record regardless if we wanna accept them or not. It's real. You can be mentioned as a pioneer of the sport, of course, but as one of the legends or the greats? No, it's an insult to everyone else who left the sport with dignity and ended their career when it was time.
 
TallGHunter said:
Why you ask?

To the death Georges....

BJ, you want dis fight? 'BJ.... BJ
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He wanted to fight to the death then quit on his stool, then brought his mom in to get the fight reversed.

JUST BLEED God was watching, and he received his reckoning.

At the end he repented, so his soul is not damned, but he can never be Saint of JUST BLEED
 
dildos said:
he is number 3 goat after fedor and gsp.

what are you talking about??
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Lol Silva >>>>>BJ. BJ was a front runner who crumbled against the elite who weathered the storm in the 1st 2 rounds
 
BJ's not even the best LW of all time, at best he's #4 or 5 on the LW list. BJ is a top 20 all time fighter.
 
Legend, absolutely! GOAT discussion's, nope.
 
No, he's great but there is simply no place for him in the Top 5.

Fedor, Silva, GSP, Jones in whatever order you like and then Aldo or DJ for the 5th spot.
 
Because you only named his highlights. He had an equal number of lowlights. He is everything you just said he was. He was also an athlete that rarely took his profession seriously
 
Penn had a few things that kept him out of the discussion. I LOVED Penn, he was absolute must see TV for years, but:
  1. For most of his career the top talent in his division was split up across multiple organizations
  2. He didn't have a lot of title defenses.
  3. He lost a lot of his big fights
  4. He stuck around for years too long and became a tragic figure
 
gono btw said:
Technically, you have to choose between the 2 narratives, 1st.

It iz what it iz.
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No, because they aren't mutually exclusive. One is "if BJ takes the lead and starts losing rounds, he loses the whole fight", the other is "if BJ loses a round, he loses the whole fight". The first is included in the second.
 
Rvd Slmr said:
No, because they aren't mutually exclusive. One is "if BJ takes the lead and starts losing rounds, he loses the whole fight", the other is "if BJ loses a round, he loses the whole fight". The first is included in the second.
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hmmm...nah... Your OP implied that BJ was an eternal quitter/frontrunner, that he couldnt win if facin´adversity.

Your new narrative is qualitatively different.
 
He's up there as a top 5 LW GOAT, but not in MMA as a whole.

Without him there would not be a Lightweight Division in American MMA

Bj, Jose Aldo & Jon Jones are the most naturally gifted and talented fighters to ever compete in the UFC.
 
superpunch said:
Doubtful. He'd get beat by lots of guys that take him into the championship rounds. He only had good cardio for a span of like 3-4 fights. That Hughes II fight would happen in repeat with lots of other guys: BJ clearly more talented, gasses, gets dominated.
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He went about 8 years without losing at 155. After losing to Pulver by decision in 2002, he did not lose at 155 again until the controversial first loss to Edgar in 2010. I don't think there was any LW in that time period that could have given him a run for his money. Yves Edwards was very very good and that would have been an awesome matchup but Penn would have definitely came in as the favorite.

NoSmilez said:
He is a good fighter. He never evolved after early 2000s. His bread and butter was BJJ but he didn't keep up with the game. Nowadays all the LWs know their bjj, they know how to wrestle, striking is on point too.
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I think BJ had better striking than 90% of today's LWs. Poirier, Conor, Gaethje, Barboza might be the only ones on BJ's level of striking. I think BJ definitely has better clinch, TDD and chin than everyone else now too. He is still the most talented fighter I have ever seen.
 
Because of his record in the last decade. He should have quit after the Fitch fight.

Also, he had the talent to compete in the discussion but he did not have the long term work ethic - we all saw how he was basically untouchable at 155 with sacrifice, dedication, and proper s & c coaches who were not Yes men and made him work.

Marv and Gary left BJ 3-4 weeks in to the camp for the 1st Edgar fight (Nick Curson talks about this) because Penn asked them to switch up the S & C because he was feeling too tired to do skill work later in the day and we saw him lose a close fight and then get clearly beat the 2nd time around when Marv and Gary were not around at all for his camp.

He is one of my favourite fighters but he had way too many Yes men around him and did not seem to like making the sacrifices needed to remain at the top.
 
POWER2 said:
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Lmao....yeah TS trippin!
 
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