Why does Kickboxing recieve so much dis-respect from the Muay Thai community?

[Deleted member 363827]

you could also say that they banned headbutts in kickboxing so it's a disadvantage for guys coming from Lethwei or Kudo who can't use their headbutts. And also they've added gloves so it's a disadvantage for bare knuckle fighters. And you can't stomp on your opponent once he's hit the ground, so it's a disadvantage for vale tudo fighters or other similar styles.
The list goes on. The main reasons are for the show, make it a sport that fighters from any style can join and not favouritise a style in particular.

Yeah, the main reason is for the show, that is why they ban it before Buakaw fought Albert Kraus less than one week notice right?
That is why they only allow one Thai fighter while bunches of Dutch are ok right?
Yeah, it is not favouritism at All, it is not like Masato got gift decision against
all top fighters even country men like Sato.
"We want to find best fighter in the world" yeah, you find him and he is a muay Thai
fighter called Buakaw. So you decided to screw him by changing the rule.

 

[VicariousVice]

Due to the following:
1) lack of elbows
2) lack of clinching
3) lack of leg kicks in American style
4) lack of knees in American style
5) shoes in savate
6) 3 x 3 rounds in K1
7) optional shinguards in the S-Cup and American style
8) footpads in American style


I wonder if fighters in Burma mock MT for the lack of headbutts?

But it's Kickboxing, which favours the fist over the elbow. I do as well, when you wear gloves. There's no denying the effectiveness of Boxing. Thai fighters might because it's a very brittle weapon, which I can understand, even Boxing diehards admit, I mean look at Mayweather, the guy has to inject his hands with painkillers on a regular basis. But it's still the quickest, closest thing to another opponents head, which makes it very dangerous.

The clinching I can understand when it comes to K-1, but Glory has allowed a 3 second clinch rule(they're considering making it 5 if it turns out well). So maybe GWS will change a few minds when it comes to this.

And the 3X3 minute rounds, I admit, definitely needs to be changed if you ask me. Kickboxing needs to be a more technical sport. If North America starts to seriously compete, they will change it. The Dutch can't keep it the way it is forever, not if they want to increase their audience.

 

[VicariousVice]

Yeah, the main reason is for the show, that is why they ban it before Buakaw fought Albert Kraus less than one week notice right?
That is why they only allow one Thai fighter while bunches of Dutch are ok right?
Yeah, it is not favouritism at All, it is not like Masato got gift decision against
all top fighters even country men like Sato.
"We want to find best fighter in the world" yeah, you find him and he is a muay Thai
fighter called Buakaw. So you decided to screw him by changing the rule.

I'm definitely beginning to understand where you're coming from.

 

[Azam]

Yeah, the main reason is for the show, that is why they ban it before Buakaw fought Albert Kraus less than one week notice right?
That is why they only allow one Thai fighter while bunches of Dutch are ok right?
Yeah, it is not favouritism at All, it is not like Masato got gift decision against
all top fighters even country men like Sato.
"We want to find best fighter in the world" yeah, you find him and he is a muay Thai
fighter called Buakaw. So you decided to screw him by changing the rule.

That is because the Dutch have consistently fought in K1 since it was created - as a result most of them are ranked. I mean it's like allowing a ranked kickboxer to have an immediate shot at Lumpinee or Rajadamnern MT title without having enough fights in an MT format - you are obviously going to give the chance to a ranked MT fighter first lol.

Masato has been favoured at various points in his career - we all know this.

I don't think Buakaw or anyone can lay claim to best fighter in the world - doesn't really exist imo. I don't think you can accept the fact that K1 changed the rules to even the playing field - not to screw anyone over. I mean use your noggin, do you think it's fair to include elbows & clinching but not allow a sanshou fighter to takedown or a knockdown guy to be able to fight under bare knuckle etc etc

 

[aries]

Elbows have no need for padding and don't break like the hand(which makes them better in self-defense), but when the gloves are on how are they superior exactly? I don't understand that mindset. Punches have more range and from what I can tell, just as much, if not more power.

Well that's partly the reason they are seen as superior. Ignoring the fragility of hands vs. elbows for a moment, just imagine what happens to an opponents face when you take the gloves off? They'd be cut to shreds in no time. That's why elbows are so devastating. It's bone on bone and plus the elbow is sharp and pointy. Then you add in the durability of the elbow as an instrument of blunt trauma and you'll see why it's seen as more dangerous.

Punches have more range but elbows can get you where you don't even expect them to. Defending elbows is a completely different game. If someone has good offensive elbows and their opponent doesn't have good elbow defence it's a nasty advantage to have. Just look at how successful someone like Carnage is against guys with relatively poor elbow defence. Jon Jones mashing up Rashad Evans by tying up hands and then sneakily elbowing him with the same arm.

 

[VicariousVice]

Well that's partly the reason they are seen as superior. Ignoring the fragility of hands vs. elbows for a moment, just imagine what happens to an opponents face when you take the gloves off? They'd be cut to shreds in no time. That's why elbows are so devastating. It's bone on bone and plus the elbow is sharp and pointy. Then you add in the durability of the elbow as an instrument of blunt trauma and you'll see why it's seen as more dangerous.

Punches have more range but elbows can get you where you don't even expect them to. Defending elbows is a completely different game. If someone has good offensive elbows and their opponent doesn't have good elbow defence it's a nasty advantage to have. Just look at how successful someone like Carnage is against guys with relatively poor elbow defence. Jon Jones mashing up Rashad Evans by tying up hands and then sneakily elbowing him with the same arm.

Great examples, it's no wonder Spong never wants to fight Carnage under full Thai Rules. Because then Carnage would have an advantage. But Spong clearly has the advantage in Kickboxing with better hands.

And what Jon Jones did too Rashad was genius. I couldn't believe how effective it was. It really opened my eyes to how effective elbows can be.

I guess when you put it that way and you see the advantages and disadvantages stacked up like that then you can make a case for the elbow over the fist, even with the gloves.

 

[Tayski]

Yeah, the main reason is for the show, that is why they ban it before Buakaw fought Albert Kraus less than one week notice right?
That is why they only allow one Thai fighter while bunches of Dutch are ok right?
Yeah, it is not favouritism at All, it is not like Masato got gift decision against
all top fighters even country men like Sato.
"We want to find best fighter in the world" yeah, you find him and he is a muay Thai
fighter called Buakaw. So you decided to screw him by changing the rule.

you're talking about K-1 here, corruption to favouritise a Japanese fighter wouldn't exactly come as a surprise.
Glory doesn't have any real interest in the Dutch and Japanese win over the Thai.

 

[VicariousVice]

All of this talk about the sport of Kickboxing not allowing elbows, extended clinching, and in certain incarnations like AK no kicks below the waist and no knees, and the fact that Nak Muay consider the fist to be an inferior weapon to the elbow begs the question;

Does the Muay Thai community across the world share similar if not the same lack of respect for Boxing as a sport? I mean, they fight with an "inferior" brittle weapon, don't allow any real clinch game outside of a few punches here and there(in fact the rules of Boxing are designed to prevent clinching) ofcourse no kicks, no knees, no elbows etc.

I'm not attempting to instigate anything here, I'm genuinely curious about this.

 

[Phaiym]

i couldn't answer that question...but there's a reason why kickboxing always has this somewhat rivarly with muay thai and not boxing....it's because they use the same weapons...kickboxing just limits it in competition and puts more emphasis on hands and combinations. same reason muay thai and lethwai have this rivarly too...people have preferences...and the reason i prefer muay thai over kickboxing is because i think it's more effective and devastating as an art

my good friend prefers dutch kickboxing...and he always tells me i need to work on my hands more..."see the light" as you will...he will most definitely outwork me with his hands, but i'll clinch and knee/elbow/kick him to death...it's all preference

 

[Boran]

Does the Muay Thai community across the world share similar if not the same lack of respect for Boxing as a sport? I mean, they fight with an "inferior" brittle weapon, don't allow any real clinch game outside of a few punches here and there(in fact the rules of Boxing are designed to prevent clinching) ofcourse no kicks, no knees, no elbows etc.

I'm not attempting to instigate anything here, I'm genuinely curious about this.

I think boxing receives more respect than kickboxing due to the higher level of its practitioners.

My main issue with kickboxing is that it's less sophisticated than muay thai. The Dutch style of kickboxing is a predictable sport. They train 1,2,3 low kick.. 1,2,liver, low kick...

Even in the best kickboxing events you will still see matches with kickboxers who shouldn't be in the ring. They lack technique and often it looks like they are just strong guys who only had a couple of lessons.

Muay thai emphasizes on technique. If you kick and you're unbalanced you won't score as much as when you perfectly execute a kick. This results in perfection and increases the level of skill of its practitioners.

In boxing there is the same thing. The level of skill among top boxers is much higher than in kickboxing. Maybe there are a few kickboxers who are at the same skill level of boxers (Petrosyan for instance), but in general the level is much lower than in boxing and muay thai.

 

[TonyK]

Thing is, MMA recieves disrespect from the Muay Thai community too, despite having more weapons and less protection.

This argument works in MMA's favor just like it works in MT's favor against the kickboxing community.

MT is my favorite sport, no doubt, but I think it's time to accept that it has an elitist community that likes to isolate itself from the other ones.

 

[DastardlyMass]

are there any of that american shiny pants foam boots wearing no kick below the waist kickboxing bouts anymore? I really think that sport died already, seems like it.

The uk is I think the last place left doing them

 

[Snubnoze707]

I like 'em all!!!

 

[CPH]

Boran's post sums up perfectly what I think. I do like a few of the craftier, less cookie-cutter kickboxers though. ex: Gevorg, Chahbari and Khamal (when he's not fighting that hot head Amrani and engaging him in full retard mode).

 

[Kamatari]

Kickboxing in Japan (before and after K-1) has always been with elbows and clinching allowed. Even though the image of the typical Japanese fighter is that of a boxing and/or low kick oriented fighter you had fighters that differentiated from another as some focused on middle kicks, others on low kicks, a few that were clinch or elbow specialists and those who were just plain punchers. I definitely prefer to watch fights with elbows and clinching, whether they're even or complete wipe outs.

That's not to say that fighters growing up with the predominant rules of today suffered, on the contrary fighters like Noiri profited greatly from being able to compete consistently under the K-1, Krush and Glory banners. And his style of fighting is pleasing to the eyes at least.

 

[VicariousVice]

Kickboxing in Japan (before and after K-1) has always been with elbows and clinching allowed. Even though the image of the typical Japanese fighter is that of a boxing and/or low kick oriented fighter you had fighters that differentiated from another as some focused on middle kicks, others on low kicks, a few that were clinch or elbow specialists and those who were just plain punchers. I definitely prefer to watch fights with elbows and clinching, whether they're even or complete wipe outs.

That's not to say that fighters growing up with the predominant rules of today suffered, on the contrary fighters like Noiri profited greatly from being able to compete consistently under the K-1, Krush and Glory banners. And his style of fighting is pleasing to the eyes at least.

How did Japanese Kickboxing differentiate itself from Muay Thai then?

 

[Kamatari]

How did Japanese Kickboxing differentiate itself from Muay Thai then?

The scoring criteria is different, there's also no ram muay and no music in between rounds which makes it somewhat of a bastardization. Because the customs are different and there's no gambling influence even top Thai fighters don't tend to play around when they fight in Japan. Between domestic fighters or Japanese and non-Thai fighters the pacing is also different. Although this is a bit of a generalization as there are still plenty of modern MT bouts that are high paced affairs.

 

[VicariousVice]

The scoring criteria is different, there's also no ram muay and no music in between rounds which makes it somewhat of a bastardization. Because the customs are different and there's no gambling influence even top Thai fighters don't tend to play around when they fight in Japan. Between domestic fighters or Japanese and non-Thai fighters the pacing is also different. Although this is a bit of a generalization as there are still plenty of modern MT bouts that are high paced affairs.

So the scoring has always been different? I'm not surprised they never used the wai khru ram muay or the music considering that's a cultural thing.

 

[zapataxiv]

In boxing there is the same thing. The level of skill among top boxers is much higher than in kickboxing. Maybe there are a few kickboxers who are at the same skill level of boxers (Petrosyan for instance), but in general the level is much lower than in boxing and muay thai.

this x a million the only two striking sports with elite competition are muay thai and boxing

Kickboxing in Japan (before and after K-1) has always been with elbows and clinching allowed. Even though the image of the typical Japanese fighter is that of a boxing and/or low kick oriented fighter

only the lame ones atsushi tateshima is way cooler than 99% of krush fighters (naoki ishikawa is included in that list if he is fighting without elbows or limited clinch rules)

 

[rockain4]

As the sport grows and gains more depth the level of practitioners will grow and the tactics will too. Too me right now there is a noticeable shift in tactics and style.

Feel like there is a lot of undeserved hate for the sport. Kickboxing is a mighty fine and exciting sport. I look forward to it's progress in the future (if it has a future).