Why do I still not think Jones is goat?

[Dionysian]

More than even using steroids it is the fact that he was actually abetted by USADA to use his steroids while other (non-favored) fighters were banned from the sport for lesser offenses. It turns an asterisk into a size-72-font asterisk because the game was rigged from the start--top to bottom.

 

[MigitAs]

Because the goat is GSP

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

Lots of people can't give Jon any credit because he hurts their feelings.

 

[Brigfa2]

Jon is still not natural but he is more careful right now so he can hide it like the other fighters

 

[volcom5]

Because you’re a newb? And your GOAT is probably Nurmagomedov?

 

[sickness666]

I understand that some people have no problem separating the character from the fighter. I can at least accept that with reservations.
People in other sports who have turned out to be assholes in some way are not called GOATS, so why should I think it's any different in MMA? I just don't get it.

For me, however, the two cannot be separated in a GOAT determination.
And that will always be the reason why there will be objections to EVERY GOAT CANDIDATE.

Unfortunately, JBJ has failed quite often as a person and as an athlete through his PED abuse. There is little room to even include him in the discussion. At least for me.

 

[TheBulge]

I understand that some people have no problem separating the character from the fighter. I can at least accept that with reservations.
People in other sports who have turned out to be assholes in some way are not called GOATS, so why should I think it's any different in MMA? I just don't get it.

For me, however, the two cannot be separated in a GOAT determination.
And that will always be the reason why there will be objections to EVERY GOAT CANDIDATE.

Unfortunately, JBJ has failed quite often as a person and as an athlete through his PED abuse. There is little room to even include him in the discussion. At least for me.

It's nonsense. In Boxing the men who are worshipped were all dirtbags who cheated on their wives and even beat them. Go read bio's on Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Ali etc. Michael Jordan the GOAT was a mean prick who was so heavily into gambling, some think it got his father killed. Maradonna was no sweetheart. I could go on.

And PED's are rampant in every sport including this one, even the most delusional fans know that but they make an exception for the fighters they dislike while others get a pass and it never even gets mentioned. Why? Because fight fans are emotional girls who are lead by their personal like or dislike for fighters.

 

[Stump]

It's because you like many others are unable to separate their own emotions/biases from reality

You could make a list like that with any other GOAT candidate

Facts are that no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has when you look at the records, accolades, resume, and number of titles won

No other goat candidate went under the same strict testing Jones did under USADA so trying to discredit him with PED use also doesn't work, and his personal life is irrelevant to his fighting career

When you look at the facts and numbers there is no argument

No such list exists for GSP. You could say gsp lacks the knockouts but TS clarified he was talking about the big boys divisions.

But I agree, jones is the GOAT on paper. He seems to have the personality abd morals of a criminal and he's cheated many times but you cannot argue his record. He should have an undefeated record and he's done it over a long period of time in two weight divisions. The stipe win adds nothing to his legacy but even without it he's a next level dominant champion.

If you want to discredit his achievements based on steroids then that's a reasonable take. If you want to discredit him as a human being for his repeated and consistent shitty behavior, I think that's also a reasonable take.

But if you're not a steroid-cheating-disqualifying hardliner, there's really no argument. He's the best.

 

[Chayanne]

If the UFC were a normal sports company, Jones would also have to surrender his titles

 

[Stump]

I understand that some people have no problem separating the character from the fighter. I can at least accept that with reservations.
People in other sports who have turned out to be assholes in some way are not called GOATS, so why should I think it's any different in MMA? I just don't get it.

For me, however, the two cannot be separated in a GOAT determination.
And that will always be the reason why there will be objections to EVERY GOAT CANDIDATE.

Unfortunately, JBJ has failed quite often as a person and as an athlete through his PED abuse. There is little room to even include him in the discussion. At least for me.

I can see this point of view and agree with it. GSP and mighty mouse are the goats if you consider admirable behavior and lack of cheating as factors. And why shouldn't we? If we were talking about war, who is th3 best warrior, then sure, eho cares how crude and savage the soldier on your side is as long as he keeps the enemies on the other side of the city walls.

But we aren't. We are talking about sport. Highly structured and rule-controlled contests.

 

[BFoe]

It's because you like many others are unable to separate their own emotions/biases from reality

You could make a list like that with any other GOAT candidate

Facts are that no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has when you look at the records, accolades, resume, and number of titles won

No other goat candidate went under the same strict testing Jones did under USADA so trying to discredit him with PED use also doesn't work, and his personal life is irrelevant to his fighting career

When you look at the facts and numbers there is no argument

Jones was hiding under the cage from NSAC before USADA was even on the scene. And once USADA was on the scene they gave him quite a few passes.

To say no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has is nonsense. Jones only recently surpassed the number of ranked wins Fedor had in his first decade, for example (and I think it’s arguable that Stipe shouldn’t have been ranked at the time)—and Jones is several ranked wins away from what GSP achieved.

 

[ferrisjso]

View attachment 1078246
If the UFC were a normal sports company, Jones would also have to surrender his titles

Lance actually cheated and in cycling during that era cheating was more universial than in any other sport ever. So much so they couldn't give his titles to anyone else because they had to go back too far in the field to find someone who might have been clean.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Jones was hiding under the cage from NSAC before USADA was even on the scene. And once USADA was on the scene they gave him quite a few passes.

To say no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has is nonsense. Jones only recently surpassed the number of ranked wins Fedor had in his first decade, for example (and I think it’s arguable that Stipe shouldn’t have been ranked at the time)—and Jones is several ranked wins away from what GSP achieved.

Ranked wins is a rather arbitrary mark though. A lot of the guys he faced were highly ranked, not just ranked. With long sample sizes of longevity to back them up, not just a flash in the pan ranking like Dan Hardy or Brett Rogers.

Jones last 3 or 4 fights at LHW were not memorable guys, but most of the guys he beat were pretty substantial in the MMA landscape. If you were to make an all time list of LHW's, many of them (perhaps half?) would be guys Jon Jones beat, and they were reasonably close to their primes. Stipe was really the only great guy he beat who was a jabroni due to age.

 

[ferrisjso]

Jones was hiding under the cage from NSAC before USADA was even on the scene. And once USADA was on the scene they gave him quite a few passes.

To say no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has is nonsense. Jones only recently surpassed the number of ranked wins Fedor had in his first decade, for example (and I think it’s arguable that Stipe shouldn’t have been ranked at the time)—and Jones is several ranked wins away from what GSP achieved.

It is nonsense. No one has accomplished 40% of what Jon did. Fuck that 50% BS.

 

[Karate Kid]

It's because you like many others are unable to separate their own emotions/biases from reality

You could make a list like that with any other GOAT candidate

Facts are that no other fighter has accomplished half of what Jones has when you look at the records, accolades, resume, and number of titles won

No other goat candidate went under the same strict testing Jones did under USADA so trying to discredit him with PED use also doesn't work, and his personal life is irrelevant to his fighting career

When you look at the facts and numbers there is no argument

this.

made a post this week similar to the context of the first sentence. wanting Jones to lose and face a downfall cannot conflate with the objective reality that he is just the GOAT and there is nothing one can do about it.

 

[ferrisjso]

Ranked wins is a rather arbitrary mark though. A lot of the guys he faced were highly ranked, not just ranked. With long sample sizes of longevity to back them up, not just a flash in the pan ranking like Dan Hardy or Brett Rogers.

Jones last 3 or 4 fights at LHW were not memorable guys, but most of the guys he beat were pretty substantial in the MMA landscape. If you were to make an all time list of LHW's, many of them (perhaps half?) would be guys Jon Jones beat, and they were reasonably close to their primes. Stipe was really the only great guy he beat who was a jabroni due to age.

People today do not understand how great Shogun, Rampage, Machida and Evans were perceived at that time. They are the "4 kings" of MMA. Its like if someone in boxing came along and nuked Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Beneitz before he was 25 got bored did a lot of cocaine then took out Julio Cesar Chavez and De La Hoya when he was bored with life.

 

[TheMadHatter]

i think a big factor is when people started watching him. if you saw his come up, how he won the belt in a short notice fight, how he ran through numerous legends of the 205lb division. then his legacy hits different. if you started watching post mcgregor and did not understand how great the fighters are on jones' resume, then I could see how it would be underwhelming.

 

[ferrisjso]

i think a big factor is when people started watching him. if you saw his come up, how he won the belt in a short notice fight, how he ran through numerous legends of the 205lb division. then his legacy hits different. if you started watching post mcgregor and did not understand how great the fighters are on jones' resume, then I could see how it would be underwhelming.

People forget Evans v Rampage did over a million PPVs as a non title bout. Thats how big time the LHW division in the pre Jones years was. He was like Cyrus the Great taking down Babylon, Media, Lydia, Egypt. People don't appreciate Cyrus because they forgot the 6th century BC and how big time these places were.

 

[Elvis.]

Gear is the most reasonable argument at this current time

 

[VinceArch]

GOAT's test positive multiple times.