Why didn’t we ever see a calf kick in K-1?

[Snubnoze707]

You should re-read the thread since you can't make further arguments.

There aren't any further arguements to be made. Everything has been addressed, other than your training background and why you think you should be offering any technical advice...

 

[98bird]

There aren't any further arguements to be made. Everything has been addressed, other than your training background and why you think you should be offering any technical advice...

Why, because you say so and can't make further arguments?

 

[98bird]

Checks hurt the kicker. Have you trained a day in your life?

It hurts both people. Have you trained a day in your life (and did you even graduated from college)?

 

[aerius]

So you're saying that a kick with my shin into your block with your shin, is not an even exchange of damage should we be of the same size? Why?

 

[98bird]

1. Silva (southpaw) vs. Weidman (orthodox) = open guard when facing each other. This sets up a common power rear leg kick by Silva, targeting the lead leg of Weidman, but as an Inside Leg Kick. Most of the time, this is a probing kick, like a jab since it's mostly orthodox vs. orthodox (closed guard). The nature of this kick is that, it's not that powerful (compared to a rear leg landing on the outer thigh of a lead leg) ...and often lands with the flat side of the shin and not the BLADED side, due to the close proximity of both lead leg and the upward angle of targeting the inner thigh. Landing with the flat of your shin on the the blade of the checker, is very dangerous as it's the weak point vs. the much, much sturdier blade. So in the closed guard, the Inside Leg Kick is rarely powerful enough to break the kicker's leg. But in the Open guard as seen in your GIF's, it's a power kick (by Silva)...and even though he did try to turn the kick downward a little with his hips, the angle wasn't there...especially when cross-checked by Weidman.

2. Silva has a ton more fights vs. Weidman, but not only that, Silva has mostly been a striking specialist most of his life, so tons of sparring. Silva's bones are probably a lot more jacked up from all the abuse. Weidman was an All American Wrestler, and grappling is his main game, so not close to the same amount of damage to his shins. His legs should be a lot more durable in terms of lessening the chances of them breaking off like this. And if you want to debate about shin conditioning, micro fracture re-healing thicker, deadened nerves, the Thais, etc. I'll definitely go there with you.

3. Silva is 10 years older than Weidman, but more important is that Silva is 44 and Weidman 34. That's an oldass grandpa vs. someone in their prime in terms of bone structure/development, etc. When they fought, Silva was close to 40 iirc, while Weidman was almost at the best age. Clashing bones like this, the oldman is usually going to lose....plus factor in the flat vs. bladed part of the shin.

4. Interestingly, your argument helps my debate as it brought up something that I haven't thought of, which is....in this Open Guard, it's very logical to target the CALF with the rear leg kick as the distance and angle is too risky from (1), and also risks landing on the nuts = foul to DQ.

 

[Snubnoze707]

It hurts both people. Have you trained a day in your life (and did you even graduated from college)?

Yes I have over 10 years of experience and have learned from guys like Ramon Dekkers, Andy Souwer and others. Checking hurts the kicker a hell of a lot more than the checker. This is basic white belt shit. You didn't answer my question.

 

[Snubnoze707]

1. Silva (southpaw) vs. Weidman (orthodox) = open guard when facing each other. This sets up a common power rear leg kick by Silva, targeting the lead leg of Weidman, but as an Inside Leg Kick. Most of the time, this is a probing kick, like a jab since it's mostly orthodox vs. orthodox (closed guard). The nature of this kick is that, it's not that powerful (compared to a rear leg landing on the outer thigh of a lead leg) ...and often lands with the flat side of the shin and not the BLADED side, due to the close proximity of both lead leg and the upward angle of targeting the inner thigh. Landing with the flat of your shin on the the blade of the checker, is very dangerous as it's the weak point vs. the much, much sturdier blade. So in the closed guard, the Inside Leg Kick is rarely powerful enough to break the kicker's leg. But in the Open guard as seen in your GIF's, it's a power kick (by Silva)...and even though he did try to turn the kick downward a little with his hips, the angle wasn't there...especially when cross-checked by Weidman.

2. Silva has a ton more fights vs. Weidman, but not only that, Silva has mostly been a striking specialist most of his life, so tons of sparring. Silva's bones are probably a lot more jacked up from all the abuse. Weidman was an All American Wrestler, and grappling is his main game, so not close to the same amount of damage to his shins. His legs should be a lot more durable in terms of lessening the chances of them breaking off like this. And if you want to debate about shin conditioning, micro fracture re-healing thicker, deadened nerves, the Thais, etc. I'll definitely go there with you.

3. Silva is 10 years older than Weidman, but more important is that Silva is 44 and Weidman 34. That's an oldass grandpa vs. someone in their prime in terms of bone structure/development, etc. When they fought, Silva was close to 40 iirc, while Weidman was almost at the best age. Clashing bones like this, the oldman is usually going to lose....plus factor in the flat vs. bladed part of the shin.

4. Interestingly, your argument helps my debate as it brought up something that I haven't thought of, which is....in this Open Guard, it's very logical to target the CALF with the rear leg kick as the distance and angle is too risky from (1), and also risks landing on the nuts = foul to DQ.

 

[aerius]

1. Silva (southpaw) vs. Weidman (orthodox) = open guard when facing each other. This sets up a common power rear leg kick by Silva, targeting the lead leg of Weidman, but as an Inside Leg Kick. Most of the time, this is a probing kick, like a jab since it's mostly orthodox vs. orthodox (closed guard). The nature of this kick is that, it's not that powerful (compared to a rear leg landing on the outer thigh of a lead leg) ...and often lands with the flat side of the shin and not the BLADED side, due to the close proximity of both lead leg and the upward angle of targeting the inner thigh. Landing with the flat of your shin on the the blade of the checker, is very dangerous as it's the weak point vs. the much, much sturdier blade. So in the closed guard, the Inside Leg Kick is rarely powerful enough to break the kicker's leg. But in the Open guard as seen in your GIF's, it's a power kick (by Silva)...and even though he did try to turn the kick downward a little with his hips, the angle wasn't there...especially when cross-checked by Weidman.

2. Silva has a ton more fights vs. Weidman, but not only that, Silva has mostly been a striking specialist most of his life, so tons of sparring. Silva's bones are probably a lot more jacked up from all the abuse. Weidman was an All American Wrestler, and grappling is his main game, so not close to the same amount of damage to his shins. His legs should be a lot more durable in terms of lessening the chances of them breaking off like this. And if you want to debate about shin conditioning, micro fracture re-healing thicker, deadened nerves, the Thais, etc. I'll definitely go there with you.

3. Silva is 10 years older than Weidman, but more important is that Silva is 44 and Weidman 34. That's an oldass grandpa vs. someone in their prime in terms of bone structure/development, etc. When they fought, Silva was close to 40 iirc, while Weidman was almost at the best age. Clashing bones like this, the oldman is usually going to lose....plus factor in the flat vs. bladed part of the shin.

4. Interestingly, your argument helps my debate as it brought up something that I haven't thought of, which is....in this Open Guard, it's very logical to target the CALF with the rear leg kick as the distance and angle is too risky from (1), and also risks landing on the nuts = foul to DQ.

Uh-huh.

Want to explain Hoost vs. Sefo which I posted on page 1?
https://forums.sherdog.com/posts/150680433/

How about Saki vs. Spong?

 

[Kanka]

To be honest he did much better than I expected.

I can't argue with what you saw, but from what i saw it was very obvious that Floyd carried him. He fought nothing like he usually does and was very flat footed, basically just lunging into McGregors punches, which carried very little power. It wasn't really a fight at any point but a lousy glorified sparring session.

 

[Kanka]

Obviously, you wait for the range to be right or if there's an opening, etc. But isn't your opponent ready to block punches to the face also based on "the stance"? So by your logic, does this mean "it doesn't make sense to leap in for the (punch)? See how silly what you just tried to argue was?

Sure you can leap in for certain strikes (leaping hook, kick, flying knee etc). They're different strikes. It's not really relevant to the discussion. Even with those other leaping strikes they're used with discretion.

Yea, so? A lead teep to the body is closer than a jab to the body....so what now? Don't throw jabs at all? Again, your faulty logic.

Different strikes used for different reasons. The discussion was thigh kicks vs calf kicks not jab vs teep or rolling thunder vs spinning back elbow or whatever.

So why does it cause damage to the calves of UFC fighters?

Because they're heavy on their front leg. Of course it will hurt if landed on a guy that has his foot planted and turned slightly inwards.

Wrong, you're just avoiding them.

You asking if i'd admit to something if you posted a video is not really an argument.

Notice how you dodged all the other points. And it depends on whether or not you caused noticeable damage.

I quit replying because you saying kicks to the arm is considered a block shows you don't know about muay thai. I don't see a point in arguing with someone that doesn't know about muay thai, but i can provide some information that might help you understand the issue better.

You were basically saying the main reason you don't see calf kicks in muay thai is because we spar with shin guards so we don't feel the damage from calf kicks. That is a fallacy because...

1. MMA fighters also use shin guards
2. Thais also spar without shin guards
3. Kicks to the arms with shin guards on doesn't cause any dagame, but is a widely used technique in Muay Thai.

The technical aspect of why calf kicks aren't widely used in muay thai have mostly been addressed. The simple answer is muay thai fighters have a taller stance and can easily block your kick so the risk reward ratio is not very good. If the muay thai guy kept his foot heavily planted of course it would hurt but that is usually not the case.

Also, to get enough power in a calf kick it pretty much requires you to lunge in and risk putting yourself in a bad position that takes longer to recover from. The further away from your hip that you kick, the more difficult it is to recover from kicks. If you watch this video you'll see people can throw multiple kicks in high speed with pefect balance.



If they had to leap in for a calf kick it would be impossible to kick in the same fashion because it puts you more off balance every time. Kicking the calf puts you more off balance than kicking the thai so kicking the thigh > kicking the calf in terms of technical efficiency and risk/reward ratio.

I also believe think the risk/reward ratio isn't that great even for kicks to the thigh in Muay Thai. Sure, it's used here and there in every fight, and there are some occasional low kick KO's and a couple of fighters that use a lot of low kicks, but in general it's not as heavily used as mid kicks and i don't know of a lot of cream of the crop fighters that are known for consistently winning their fights bylow kicks. Fighters like Liam Harrison, Ramon Dekkers, Pornsaneh use a lot of low kicks typically fall short when they meet a good mid kicker. Yodlekphet is the one fighter who uses a lot of low kicks and who has a phenomenal record that comes to mind though. I see no reason to take a technique that already is high risk low reward and make it even more high risk low reward.

 

[98bird]

Yes I have over 10 years of experience and have learned from guys like Ramon Dekkers, Andy Souwer and others. Checking hurts the kicker a hell of a lot more than the checker. This is basic white belt shit. You didn't answer my question.

Anyone can pay the gym fees to train with them, what's the big deal. How many fights have you had?

 

[98bird]

Uh-huh.

Want to explain Hoost vs. Sefo which I posted on page 1?
https://forums.sherdog.com/posts/150680433/

How about Saki vs. Spong?

Since you didn't understand my 1st explanation, why should I waste my time?

 

[98bird]

Sure you can leap in for certain strikes (leaping hook, kick, flying knee etc). They're different strikes. It's not really relevant to the discussion. Even with those other leaping strikes they're used with discretion.

Different strikes used for different reasons. The discussion was thigh kicks vs calf kicks not jab vs teep or rolling thunder vs spinning back elbow or whatever.

Because they're heavy on their front leg. Of course it will hurt if landed on a guy that has his foot planted and turned slightly inwards.

No, it will also hurt also if they lift up the lead leg to check and it lands on the calf.

What about southpaw vs orthodox? Most of the rear leg kicks, targets the calf when going low.

You asking if i'd admit to something if you posted a video is not really an argument.

Then why did you say that it wasn't trained by the Thais then?

I quit replying because you saying kicks to the arm is considered a block shows you don't know about muay thai. I don't see a point in arguing with someone that doesn't know about muay thai, but i can provide some information that might help you understand the issue better.

I was talking about the damage inflicted which is what's being questioned here. The arms are blocking the kick from causing more damage should it land to the body.

You were basically saying the main reason you don't see calf kicks in muay thai is because we spar with shin guards so we don't feel the damage from calf kicks. That is a fallacy because...

1. MMA fighters also use shin guards

No joke? Could it be that most MMA fighters train Muay Thai?

2. Thais also spar without shin guards
3. Kicks to the arms with shin guards on doesn't cause any dagame, but is a widely used technique in Muay Thai.

Because they're primarily, trying to land on the body.

The technical aspect of why calf kicks aren't widely used in muay thai have mostly been addressed. The simple answer is muay thai fighters have a taller stance and can easily block your kick so the risk reward ratio is not very good. If the muay thai guy kept his foot heavily planted of course it would hurt but that is usually not the case.

Also, to get enough power in a calf kick it pretty much requires you to lunge in and risk putting yourself in a bad position that takes longer to recover from. The further away from your hip that you kick, the more difficult it is to recover from kicks. If you watch this video you'll see people can throw multiple kicks in high speed with pefect balance.



If they had to leap in for a calf kick it would be impossible to kick in the same fashion because it puts you more off balance every time. Kicking the calf puts you more off balance than kicking the thai so kicking the thigh > kicking the calf in terms of technical efficiency and risk/reward ratio.

I also believe think the risk/reward ratio isn't that great even for kicks to the thigh in Muay Thai. Sure, it's used here and there in every fight, and there are some occasional low kick KO's and a couple of fighters that use a lot of low kicks, but in general it's not as heavily used as mid kicks and i don't know of a lot of cream of the crop fighters that are known for consistently winning their fights bylow kicks. Fighters like Liam Harrison, Ramon Dekkers, Pornsaneh use a lot of low kicks typically fall short when they meet a good mid kicker. Yodlekphet is the one fighter who uses a lot of low kicks and who has a phenomenal record that comes to mind though. I see no reason to take a technique that already is high risk low reward and make it even more high risk low reward.

I didn't say it should replace kicks to the thighs, you somehow think that I did.

 

[aerius]

Since you didn't understand my 1st explanation, why should I waste my time?

I don't know, you tell me.
Why do you insist on wasting everyone else's time?

 

[Monte Moku]

All it takes is a quick browse through this guy's replies and the other thread that was advocating kicking flat-footed to see how painfully behind America is in any striking-oriented sport that isn't Boxing. They are way too convinced of themselves.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Anyone can pay the gym fees to train with them, what's the big deal. How many fights have you had?

Since you keep avoiding my question I'll just assume you've never trained a day in your life...

 

[Snubnoze707]

All it takes is a quick browse through this guy's replies and the other thread that was advocating kicking flat-footed to see how painfully behind America is in any striking-oriented sport that isn't Boxing. They are way too convinced of themselves.

Whoa, excuse me. This guy doesn't represent "America"...

 

[Kanka]

No, it will also hurt also if they lift up the lead leg to check and it lands on the calf.

What about southpaw vs orthodox? Most of the rear leg kicks, targets the calf when going low.

If it lands on the calf it still hurts less than if the foot is planted and if it lands on the shin it hurts the kicker more. No, most rear leg kicks in a southpaw vs orthodox match target the thigh.

Then why did you say that it wasn't trained by the Thais then?

I didn't say that there is absolutely no thai that trains that way, it's just not the norm.

No joke? Could it be that most MMA fighters train Muay Thai?

Nope, most MMA fighters don't train real muay thai, they train striking for MMA, which might have been influenced my muay thai.

Because they're primarily, trying to land on the body.

Not necessarily. Some kicks are aimed at the ribs, some at the arms. You can not block a kick to the arm with your arm, in the same way you can not block a kick to the thigh with your thigh.

If you lower your arms to protect your ribs would still score for the kicker, depending on the impact/effectiveness of the strike.

It's also a good way to get head kicked or your arm broken.

KO'd by lowering arms:


Arm broken from kicks to the arm


Ref stoppage because blue trunks got hurt by kicks to the arms.

I didn't say it should replace kicks to the thighs, you somehow think that I did.

I didn't think that you thought kicks to the thigh should be replaced by kicks to the calf, i was just disputing your statement about why kicks to the calf aren't more prevalent in muay thai. It is simply not about the shin guards.

 

[Monte Moku]

Whoa, excuse me. This guy doesn't represent "America"...

Didn't mean to frame it that way, sorry about that. I was mainly commenting on the fact that both are American and have dubious advice/knowledge of striking sports.

I'm pretty new to this compared to you guys, but in my time training I have come across more people who have questionable expertise compared to the ones who have sound methods. From what I have read and experienced, America isn't the greatest place for Muay Thai or Kickboxing (though there are some hotbeds) and I see it reflected glaringly when someone like this, or the flat-foot dude, are so attached to their ideas that they won't budge even when an overwhelming majority of people are giving logical rebuttals. I'm sure there are those types all over the world, but from my point of view it's much more common in the US. Or at least seems to be.

 

[Kanka]

Didn't mean to frame it that way, sorry about that. I was mainly commenting on the fact that both are American and have dubious advice/knowledge of striking sports.

I'm pretty new to this compared to you guys, but in my time training I have come across more people who have questionable expertise compared to the ones who have sound methods. From what I have read and experienced, America isn't the greatest place for Muay Thai or Kickboxing (though there are some hotbeds) and I see it reflected glaringly when someone like this, or the flat-foot dude, are so attached to their ideas that they won't budge even when an overwhelming majority of people are giving logical rebuttals. I'm sure there are those types all over the world, but from my point of view it's much more common in the US. Or at least seems to be.

I don't think that the US is necessarily bad for kickboxing. Plenty of MMA fighters would probably do well in kickboxing. Muay Thai is a different story.