Why are russian wresting so much better than american wrestling?

As a whitebelt, I'm no expert on these sorts of things, but it seems to me that there are few, if any, valid arguments for starting this thread in the UFC forum. That being said, wrestling enthusiasts ought to take advantage of the fact that this thread exists and is getting a lot of hits on the site's biggest forum to clear up a few points that are understandably hazy for the general public.

First, the type of wrestling you would see in high school gyms dotting snowy Midwestern cornfields/Pennsylvania steel towns/whatever is not the same as the types of wrestling you would see in the Olympics (or in gyms in Dagestan, Tehran, or anywhere else in the world). The former is called 'Folkstyle Wrestling' while latter two are called 'Freestyle Wrestling' and 'Greco-Roman Wrestling'.

What are the differences between these styles? Let's first consider GR wrestling. From a very macro perspective, we can simply say in GR you cannot use your legs (or your opponent's legs) as offensive or defensive weapons. No double-legs, trips, etc. are allowed. Moreover, you must accompany your opponent to the ground (i.e. you can't throw him and then sprawl on top of him). In both Freestyle and Folkstyle, legs are fair game. This point isn't fundamental to TS's original post, but I think it's basic grappling literacy (which is helpful when discussing MMA generally).

The differences in Freestyle and Folkstyle are a little more difficult to spot for the casual observer, but these differences cut to the core of what TS originally asked. The biggest difference (IMO) between Freestyle and Folkstyle is the scoring systems. A common refrain is that "Freestyle emphasizes explosion while Folkstyle emphasizes dominance." This is absolutely true but can be a little difficult to understand if you're not already familiar with both sports. What this saying is trying to point out is that the two sports' scoring systems reward fundamentally different types of moves and strategies.

The first thing we ought to recognize is that the match score is accounted for at different times during a freestyle and a folkstyle match. In freestyle, round scores are noted and then reset at the end of each of the three periods. Whoever has the higher score at the end of the round wins it and gets a point. The first wrestler to win two rounds wins the match (barring a technical fall [gaining a large enough point lead in a given round for the ref to stop the match in your favor] or an actual pin). Contrast this with American folkstyle wrestling, where the score is never reset. If wrestler A kicks wrestler B's ass in round 1 and then slightly loses to wrestler to round 2, he still has a lead in points in folkstyle (like winning a 10-7 first round and then losing a 10-9 second round in MMA). This is where the 'Folkstyle emphasizes dominance' part of the aforementioned saying comes from.

Where does 'Freestyle emphasizes explosion' come from, then? It comes from the way the two sports view top control/riding time. In Folkstyle, top control is paramount. At the highest levels of competition, the time differential between your riding time (the time you spend in top control) and your opponent's factors into your final score. For every minute more you spend in top control, you get an extra point added to your final score. Therefore, in high-level matches, where points are hard to come by (since everyone is so good at defense/scrambling), the most surefire way earn points is to stay on top and accumulate riding time (as long as the ref doesn't think you're stalling, in which case you can lose points!). In Folkstyle, there is little to no incentive for the bottom man to LnP because he will get beat up for however long is left in the round (I guess you could say a guy with a huge lead might just stall out the end of the third round, but that's a super risky strategy since you're playing with a possible DQ). This is not the case in Freestyle. In Freestyle, once the match goes to the ground, the bottom man is encouraged to stall. If he can nullify the top man's offensive game and remain flat on his stomach for some period of time (15 seconds? I'm not a freestyle expert.), the match is reset to the feet. Hence, no incentive for riding time. Also, in Freestyle every time you can make your opponent's back touch the mat (even for a fraction of a second!), you get a point (in folkstyle you have to hold a guy down on the mat for at least one second, and you have to reset your grip before you score points for the same move). So quick turns and rolls are far more useful to the top man in Freestyle than working for a cradle etc. Pulling off a lot of moves in succession is also better in freestyle because the risk/reward is far better than it is in Folkstyle (where screwing up would mean potentially losing top control and might even mean ending up on bottom).

What does this say about wrestling/fighting styles? Since Folkstyle wrestlers can remain on top indefinitely, they can then proceed to grind their opponents faces into the mat and attempt to crush their wills by wearing them out. This mentality becomes deeply embedded into the minds of American wrestlers. The mentality, simply put, is to suffocate your opponent and make them quit (i.e. exert total dominance). There's a very clear progression from American folkstyle to Fitching (not a problem in my book but I can see why some might not find it that exciting). What TS might think of as 'boring' wrestling stems from a philosophical decision made about how American wrestling is scored. On the other hand, the more 'exciting' Russian (or, more accurately, 'international') wrestlers come from a tradition that places greater emphasis on motion. Take the guy down, throw him, whatever, but don't settle for doing that once. You've got to keep moving because round scores only matter for one round. I could see how this type could lead to a mindset that forces action a little sooner in the match.

I don't think you can see either type of style is 'better' absolutely. Russians have produced better Olympic wrestlers (Satiev > Smith, Medved > Baumgartner, Karelin > anyone), but as others have said, I have to think at least part of this is the fact that Americans largely don't train folkstyle. I'm not trying to do a nationalist pissing contest thing, I just think that's an unassailable fact. If Smith, Baumgartner, and Gable had trained freestyle their whole lives, we may have a different story w/r/t to the above comparison. Hell, if Gable and Smith could just have been convinced to stick around international wrestling for longer than they did, we may have a different story (they were damn good anyway, but never had the long-term dominance of the state-sponsored Russians). I hope this post was somewhat helpful (I admittedly oversimplified a lot things but saw that this post was getting out hand, length-wise). If not or tl;dr, flame on, I guess.

This is a really good post! Thank you for taking the time to explain about some of the main differences between the wrestling styles.

And LOL@ Fitching.

By the way, from your explanation, it seems to me that the freestyle (Russian/international) wrestling would make for a MUCH more interesting MMA fight due to their focus on constant activity as opposed to folkstyle (NCAA wrestling) where the emphasis is on pinning and grinding out the opponents, commonly known in MMA as lay and pray :icon_twis.
 
As a whitebelt, I'm no expert on these sorts of things, but it seems to me that there are few, if any, valid arguments for starting this thread in the UFC forum. That being said, wrestling enthusiasts ought to take advantage of the fact that this thread exists and is getting a lot of hits on the site's biggest forum to clear up a few points that are understandably hazy for the general public.

First, the type of wrestling you would see in high school gyms dotting snowy Midwestern cornfields/Pennsylvania steel towns/whatever is not the same as the types of wrestling you would see in the Olympics (or in gyms in Dagestan, Tehran, or anywhere else in the world). The former is called 'Folkstyle Wrestling' while latter two are called 'Freestyle Wrestling' and 'Greco-Roman Wrestling'.

What are the differences between these styles? Let's first consider GR wrestling. From a very macro perspective, we can simply say in GR you cannot use your legs (or your opponent's legs) as offensive or defensive weapons. No double-legs, trips, etc. are allowed. Moreover, you must accompany your opponent to the ground (i.e. you can't throw him and then sprawl on top of him). In both Freestyle and Folkstyle, legs are fair game. This point isn't fundamental to TS's original post, but I think it's basic grappling literacy (which is helpful when discussing MMA generally).

The differences in Freestyle and Folkstyle are a little more difficult to spot for the casual observer, but these differences cut to the core of what TS originally asked. The biggest difference (IMO) between Freestyle and Folkstyle is the scoring systems. A common refrain is that "Freestyle emphasizes explosion while Folkstyle emphasizes dominance." This is absolutely true but can be a little difficult to understand if you're not already familiar with both sports. What this saying is trying to point out is that the two sports' scoring systems reward fundamentally different types of moves and strategies.

The first thing we ought to recognize is that the match score is accounted for at different times during a freestyle and a folkstyle match. In freestyle, round scores are noted and then reset at the end of each of the three periods. Whoever has the higher score at the end of the round wins it and gets a point. The first wrestler to win two rounds wins the match (barring a technical fall [gaining a large enough point lead in a given round for the ref to stop the match in your favor] or an actual pin). Contrast this with American folkstyle wrestling, where the score is never reset. If wrestler A kicks wrestler B's ass in round 1 and then slightly loses to wrestler to round 2, he still has a lead in points in folkstyle (like winning a 10-7 first round and then losing a 10-9 second round in MMA). This is where the 'Folkstyle emphasizes dominance' part of the aforementioned saying comes from.

Where does 'Freestyle emphasizes explosion' come from, then? It comes from the way the two sports view top control/riding time. In Folkstyle, top control is paramount. At the highest levels of competition, the time differential between your riding time (the time you spend in top control) and your opponent's factors into your final score. For every minute more you spend in top control, you get an extra point added to your final score. Therefore, in high-level matches, where points are hard to come by (since everyone is so good at defense/scrambling), the most surefire way earn points is to stay on top and accumulate riding time (as long as the ref doesn't think you're stalling, in which case you can lose points!). In Folkstyle, there is little to no incentive for the bottom man to LnP because he will get beat up for however long is left in the round (I guess you could say a guy with a huge lead might just stall out the end of the third round, but that's a super risky strategy since you're playing with a possible DQ). This is not the case in Freestyle. In Freestyle, once the match goes to the ground, the bottom man is encouraged to stall. If he can nullify the top man's offensive game and remain flat on his stomach for some period of time (15 seconds? I'm not a freestyle expert.), the match is reset to the feet. Hence, no incentive for riding time. Also, in Freestyle every time you can make your opponent's back touch the mat (even for a fraction of a second!), you get a point (in folkstyle you have to hold a guy down on the mat for at least one second, and you have to reset your grip before you score points for the same move). So quick turns and rolls are far more useful to the top man in Freestyle than working for a cradle etc. Pulling off a lot of moves in succession is also better in freestyle because the risk/reward is far better than it is in Folkstyle (where screwing up would mean potentially losing top control and might even mean ending up on bottom).

What does this say about wrestling/fighting styles? Since Folkstyle wrestlers can remain on top indefinitely, they can then proceed to grind their opponents faces into the mat and attempt to crush their wills by wearing them out. This mentality becomes deeply embedded into the minds of American wrestlers. The mentality, simply put, is to suffocate your opponent and make them quit (i.e. exert total dominance). There's a very clear progression from American folkstyle to Fitching (not a problem in my book but I can see why some might not find it that exciting). What TS might think of as 'boring' wrestling stems from a philosophical decision made about how American wrestling is scored. On the other hand, the more 'exciting' Russian (or, more accurately, 'international') wrestlers come from a tradition that places greater emphasis on motion. Take the guy down, throw him, whatever, but don't settle for doing that once. You've got to keep moving because round scores only matter for one round. I could see how this type could lead to a mindset that forces action a little sooner in the match.

I don't think you can see either type of style is 'better' absolutely. Russians have produced better Olympic wrestlers (Satiev > Smith, Medved > Baumgartner, Karelin > anyone), but as others have said, I have to think at least part of this is the fact that Americans largely don't train folkstyle. I'm not trying to do a nationalist pissing contest thing, I just think that's an unassailable fact. If Smith, Baumgartner, and Gable had trained freestyle their whole lives, we may have a different story w/r/t to the above comparison. Hell, if Gable and Smith could just have been convinced to stick around international wrestling for longer than they did, we may have a different story (they were damn good anyway, but never had the long-term dominance of the state-sponsored Russians). I hope this post was somewhat helpful (I admittedly oversimplified a lot things but saw that this post was getting out hand, length-wise). If not or tl;dr, flame on, I guess.

The rest of your brilliant post says you do. good work sir!
 
This is a really good post! Thank you for taking the time to explain about some of the main differences between the wrestling styles.

And LOL@ Fitching.

By the way, from your explanation, it seems to me that the freestyle (Russian/international) wrestling would make for a MUCH more interesting MMA fight due to their focus on constant activity as opposed to folkstyle (NCAA wrestling) where the emphasis is on pinning and grinding out the opponents, commonly known in MMA as lay and pray :icon_twis.

Glad you found it helpful.

W/r/t the whole interest factor thing, you're probably right--my interest in the small technical details that make 'Fitching' etc. possible is probably akin to Joe Rogan geeking out on high-level jiu jitsu (though my wrestling knowledge/skill is nowhere near Rogan's BJJ knowledge/skill). I've got a super basic understanding of jiu jitsu (rolled for three months and that was it), can appreciate it at a macro level, but I'm not going to go nuts over a guy that has a really good guard. To some part of me, that's still stalling (this part of me is slowly disappearing as I become better educated). I totally understand how someone who's not as into high-level wrestling might equate fitching with flopping on top of a guy and doing nothing. If you're not hip to the little things, it does look like almost nothing.

I think the reason the debate over LnP/what constitutes an 'exciting' match is so heated is because the BJJ/wrestling mindset are so contrary to one another. It seems from the BJJ perspective, the guy on top is responsible for forcing the action (since the guy on bottom, if he's in guard, is in the controlling position), whereas clearly from the Folkstyle perspective, it's the bottom man's responsibility to force action. Neither side is 100% right; but I think the situation will get better as we all gain better understanding of new disciplines.

Regardless, Freestyle guys are always welcome to enter the Octagon in my book. I'm thrilled to see the Caucauses getting repped.
 
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As a whitebelt, I'm no expert on these sorts of things, but it seems to me that there are few, if any, valid arguments for starting this thread in the UFC forum. That being said, wrestling enthusiasts ought to take advantage of the fact that this thread exists and is getting a lot of hits on the site's biggest forum to clear up a few points that are understandably hazy for the general public.

First, the type of wrestling you would see in high school gyms dotting snowy Midwestern cornfields/Pennsylvania steel towns/whatever is not the same as the types of wrestling you would see in the Olympics (or in gyms in Dagestan, Tehran, or anywhere else in the world). The former is called 'Folkstyle Wrestling' while latter two are called 'Freestyle Wrestling' and 'Greco-Roman Wrestling'.

What are the differences between these styles? Let's first consider GR wrestling. From a very macro perspective, we can simply say in GR you cannot use your legs (or your opponent's legs) as offensive or defensive weapons. No double-legs, trips, etc. are allowed. Moreover, you must accompany your opponent to the ground (i.e. you can't throw him and then sprawl on top of him). In both Freestyle and Folkstyle, legs are fair game. This point isn't fundamental to TS's original post, but I think it's basic grappling literacy (which is helpful when discussing MMA generally).

The differences in Freestyle and Folkstyle are a little more difficult to spot for the casual observer, but these differences cut to the core of what TS originally asked. The biggest difference (IMO) between Freestyle and Folkstyle is the scoring systems. A common refrain is that "Freestyle emphasizes explosion while Folkstyle emphasizes dominance." This is absolutely true but can be a little difficult to understand if you're not already familiar with both sports. What this saying is trying to point out is that the two sports' scoring systems reward fundamentally different types of moves and strategies.

The first thing we ought to recognize is that the match score is accounted for at different times during a freestyle and a folkstyle match. In freestyle, round scores are noted and then reset at the end of each of the three periods. Whoever has the higher score at the end of the round wins it and gets a point. The first wrestler to win two rounds wins the match (barring a technical fall [gaining a large enough point lead in a given round for the ref to stop the match in your favor] or an actual pin). Contrast this with American folkstyle wrestling, where the score is never reset. If wrestler A kicks wrestler B's ass in round 1 and then slightly loses to wrestler to round 2, he still has a lead in points in folkstyle (like winning a 10-7 first round and then losing a 10-9 second round in MMA). This is where the 'Folkstyle emphasizes dominance' part of the aforementioned saying comes from.

Where does 'Freestyle emphasizes explosion' come from, then? It comes from the way the two sports view top control/riding time. In Folkstyle, top control is paramount. At the highest levels of competition, the time differential between your riding time (the time you spend in top control) and your opponent's factors into your final score. For every minute more you spend in top control, you get an extra point added to your final score. Therefore, in high-level matches, where points are hard to come by (since everyone is so good at defense/scrambling), the most surefire way earn points is to stay on top and accumulate riding time (as long as the ref doesn't think you're stalling, in which case you can lose points!). In Folkstyle, there is little to no incentive for the bottom man to LnP because he will get beat up for however long is left in the round (I guess you could say a guy with a huge lead might just stall out the end of the third round, but that's a super risky strategy since you're playing with a possible DQ). This is not the case in Freestyle. In Freestyle, once the match goes to the ground, the bottom man is encouraged to stall. If he can nullify the top man's offensive game and remain flat on his stomach for some period of time (15 seconds? I'm not a freestyle expert.), the match is reset to the feet. Hence, no incentive for riding time. Also, in Freestyle every time you can make your opponent's back touch the mat (even for a fraction of a second!), you get a point (in folkstyle you have to hold a guy down on the mat for at least one second, and you have to reset your grip before you score points for the same move). So quick turns and rolls are far more useful to the top man in Freestyle than working for a cradle etc. Pulling off a lot of moves in succession is also better in freestyle because the risk/reward is far better than it is in Folkstyle (where screwing up would mean potentially losing top control and might even mean ending up on bottom).

What does this say about wrestling/fighting styles? Since Folkstyle wrestlers can remain on top indefinitely, they can then proceed to grind their opponents faces into the mat and attempt to crush their wills by wearing them out. This mentality becomes deeply embedded into the minds of American wrestlers. The mentality, simply put, is to suffocate your opponent and make them quit (i.e. exert total dominance). There's a very clear progression from American folkstyle to Fitching (not a problem in my book but I can see why some might not find it that exciting). What TS might think of as 'boring' wrestling stems from a philosophical decision made about how American wrestling is scored. On the other hand, the more 'exciting' Russian (or, more accurately, 'international') wrestlers come from a tradition that places greater emphasis on motion. Take the guy down, throw him, whatever, but don't settle for doing that once. You've got to keep moving because round scores only matter for one round. I could see how this type could lead to a mindset that forces action a little sooner in the match.

I don't think you can see either type of style is 'better' absolutely. Russians have produced better Olympic wrestlers (Satiev > Smith, Medved > Baumgartner, Karelin > anyone), but as others have said, I have to think at least part of this is the fact that Americans largely don't train folkstyle. I'm not trying to do a nationalist pissing contest thing, I just think that's an unassailable fact. If Smith, Baumgartner, and Gable had trained freestyle their whole lives, we may have a different story w/r/t to the above comparison. Hell, if Gable and Smith could just have been convinced to stick around international wrestling for longer than they did, we may have a different story (they were damn good anyway, but never had the long-term dominance of the state-sponsored Russians). I hope this post was somewhat helpful (I admittedly oversimplified a lot things but saw that this post was getting out hand, length-wise). If not or tl;dr, flame on, I guess.


My god...my brain exploded reading all that knowlege...good work man...white belt or not you know your shit
 
This is a really good post! Thank you for taking the time to explain about some of the main differences between the wrestling styles.

And LOL@ Fitching.

By the way, from your explanation, it seems to me that the freestyle (Russian/international) wrestling would make for a MUCH more interesting MMA fight due to their focus on constant activity as opposed to folkstyle (NCAA wrestling) where the emphasis is on pinning and grinding out the opponents, commonly known in MMA as lay and pray :icon_twis.

Its important to note there are multiple schools of thought in folkstyle wrestling as well. The Iowa style of wrestling is about dominating your opponent and outgrinding them in a very mean, aggressive manner. Positioning and conditioning are key. Constant Pressure. This was the style Dan Gable preached as a college wrestler( 3 NCAA titles at Iowa State) and as an Olympic Champion, Didn't give up a single point in 1972. At Iowa he won 17 national titles as Coach including 9 straight. Gable style MMA wrestlers just dominate their competitors and continually press the action. Pat Milletich preached this style. Matt Hughes used it to dominate at WW. GSP has a similar style to this.

The other major school of thought is John Smith style from Oklahoma State. They preach more finesse style which uses dominance from neutral position, speed,quickness and constant motion. Alot of the Oklahoma State wrestlers use this style.

Dan Gable and John Smith are like 1A and 1B in American wrestling. When done right either style is lethal. My biggest dissapointment about MMA is the fact that Iowa hasnt produced more guys in MMA but I think the style doesnt transition well into the sport. Elite BJJ,Judo,Muai Thai,and Striking really neutralize it. When a guy that wrestles this way gets well rounded in other techniques, they are very good like a MAtt Hughes.

One Iowa guy i'm looking forward to getting in the MMA game is Brent Metcalf. If he can learn striking and submissions, he would be a dangerous FW/BW.
 
Because here in North, Finland and Russia, we wrestle polar bears.

And you cant just lay on them without doing a thing, you need to have good ground and pound and suplexes.

If you dont, your family grave will be filled up once again...
 
folkstyle isnt that sexy. people like to see throws, not chain td's. to get a throw u need to clinch. to get a cinch you need to close fast. it is by nature more action than standing on the outside waiting for your shot
 
Its important to note there are multiple schools of thought in folkstyle wrestling as well. The Iowa style of wrestling is about dominating your opponent and outgrinding them in a very mean, aggressive manner. Positioning and conditioning are key. Constant Pressure. This was the style Dan Gable preached as a college wrestler( 3 NCAA titles at Iowa State) and as an Olympic Champion, Didn't give up a single point in 1972. At Iowa he won 17 national titles as Coach including 9 straight. Gable style MMA wrestlers just dominate their competitors and continually press the action. Pat Milletich preached this style. Matt Hughes used it to dominate at WW. GSP has a similar style to this.

The other major school of thought is John Smith style from Oklahoma State. They preach more finesse style which uses dominance from neutral position, speed,quickness and constant motion. Alot of the Oklahoma State wrestlers use this style.

Dan Gable and John Smith are like 1A and 1B in American wrestling. When done right either style is lethal. My biggest dissapointment about MMA is the fact that Iowa hasnt produced more guys in MMA but I think the style doesnt transition well into the sport. Elite BJJ,Judo,Muai Thai,and Striking really neutralize it. When a guy that wrestles this way gets well rounded in other techniques, they are very good like a MAtt Hughes.

One Iowa guy i'm looking forward to getting in the MMA game is Brent Metcalf. If he can learn striking and submissions, he would be a dangerous FW/BW.

Metcalf is thinking about getting into MMA? Do you have a link for that? That's awesome, I'd really be excited to see him fight.

You're spot on with the breakdown of the two dominant styles in Folkstyle. Iowa and Oklahoma State have been producing a lot of great wrestlers for a very long time and a lot of that has to do Gable (and his extended coaching tree) and Smith. I'm curious as to what you mean when you say that Iowa hasn't produced more MMA guys. Do you mean the school? If so, I'm kind of surprised as well but imagine the number of alums is only going to increase as MMA continues to become a more visible career path for ex-wrestlers. The style/state has certainly exerted a huge influence on modern MMA through UFC, most notably via Miletich's fight camp (though his greatest fighter came from across the border in Illinois :icon_chee).

Despite Iowa's stylistic dominance over American MMA, it is worth mentioning that the highest profile NCAA champion wrestler in the UFC, Johny 'Big Rigg' Hendricks, was one of John Smith's great proteges at Oklahoma State. Though it seems that Big Rigg, much like Big Country, has abandoned (at least for now) his proven grappling skills for the siren song of the quick KO.
 
Glad you found it helpful.

W/r/t the whole interest factor thing, you're probably right--my interest in the small technical details that make 'Fitching' etc. possible is probably akin to Joe Rogan geeking out on high-level jiu jitsu (though my wrestling knowledge/skill is nowhere near Rogan's BJJ knowledge/skill).

LOL@ Rogan geeking out on BJJ. I do from time to time try to geek out on any aspect of a fight, whether it'd be striking, wrestling, or JJ. From my past experiences, it's much easier to geek out and still enjoy a fight if there is some action going on as opposed to when it is being stalled (e.g. fighters circling and don't get in striking range; maintaining top control and don't improve position or throw pitter patter punches just to remain in guard, etc.).

I've got a super basic understanding of jiu jitsu (rolled for three months and that was it), can appreciate it at a macro level, but I'm not going to go nuts over a guy that has a really good guard. To some part of me, that's still stalling (this part of me is slowly disappearing as I become better educated). I totally understand how someone who's not as into high-level wrestling might equate fitching with flopping on top of a guy and doing nothing. If you're not hip to the little things, it does look like almost nothing.

Yeah, you're right. When a guy is on top and just hold his position, it does look like he's just stalling and doing nothing. Personally, I understand it takes a lot of skills to maintain that kind of a position, but it not as enjoyable to watch as, say, when wrestlers are constantly trying to reverse one another like in that video that was posted a few replies ago. Those were extremely beautiful and exciting wrestling moves to watch. :cool:

I think the reason the debate over LnP/what constitutes an 'exciting' match is so heated is because the BJJ/wrestling mindset are so contrary to one another. It seems from the BJJ perspective, the guy on top is responsible for forcing the action (since the guy on bottom, if he's in guard, is in the controlling position), whereas clearly from the Folkstyle perspective, it's the bottom man's responsibility to force action. Neither side is 100% right; but I think the situation will get better as we all gain better understanding of new disciplines.

The type of wrestling where wrestlers focus on top control can be exciting to watch, too. I think the exciting wrestlers are the ones who use their top control to finish fights (e.g. Brock, Jones, Hughes, etc.), where as the not so exciting wrestlers use their top position to control the opponents but don't go for the finish or they're just too conservative in trying to finish.

Regardless, Freestyle guys are always welcome to enter the Octagon in my book. I'm thrilled to see the Caucauses getting repped.

That would be great for MMA fans! Hopefully, this will happen soon in the near future. :wink:
 
Its important to note there are multiple schools of thought in folkstyle wrestling as well. The Iowa style of wrestling is about dominating your opponent and outgrinding them in a very mean, aggressive manner. Positioning and conditioning are key. Constant Pressure. This was the style Dan Gable preached as a college wrestler( 3 NCAA titles at Iowa State) and as an Olympic Champion, Didn't give up a single point in 1972. At Iowa he won 17 national titles as Coach including 9 straight. Gable style MMA wrestlers just dominate their competitors and continually press the action. Pat Milletich preached this style. Matt Hughes used it to dominate at WW. GSP has a similar style to this.

Thanks iowamma! These are some fascinating background info on folkstyle wrestling! Quite educational! Hughes was one of the most exciting wrestlers in MMA that I can remember. He always pressed the action and took it to his opponents, and he always went for the finish. I don't think there ever was a fight of his that was boring.

The other major school of thought is John Smith style from Oklahoma State. They preach more finesse style which uses dominance from neutral position, speed,quickness and constant motion. Alot of the Oklahoma State wrestlers use this style.

Interesting info. Was/is there an MMA fighter who used this style of wrestling?

Dan Gable and John Smith are like 1A and 1B in American wrestling. When done right either style is lethal. My biggest dissapointment about MMA is the fact that Iowa hasnt produced more guys in MMA but I think the style doesnt transition well into the sport. Elite BJJ,Judo,Muai Thai,and Striking really neutralize it.

Is there any specific reason as to why this style of wrestling doesn't transfer well into MMA (as opposed to other style of wrestling, such as Greco-roman)? Perhaps certain techniques that are the foundation of this style are not practical in an MMA setting?

One Iowa guy i'm looking forward to getting in the MMA game is Brent Metcalf. If he can learn striking and submissions, he would be a dangerous FW/BW.

When is he expected to make a move to MMA?

Anyway, thanks for some interesting background info on the various schools of folkstyle wrestling. Very interesting read! :icon_chee
 
Despite Iowa's stylistic dominance over American MMA, it is worth mentioning that the highest profile NCAA champion wrestler in the UFC, Johny 'Big Rigg' Hendricks, was one of John Smith's great proteges at Oklahoma State. Though it seems that Big Rigg, much like Big Country, has abandoned (at least for now) his proven grappling skills for the siren song of the quick KO.

Say goodbye to NCAA Hendricks. Say hello to WBO Big Rigg :icon_chee.
 
Because here in North, Finland and Russia, we wrestle polar bears.

And you cant just lay on them without doing a thing, you need to have good ground and pound and suplexes.

If you dont, your family grave will be filled up once again...

:icon_lol:

Your post reminded me of this pic:

Fedor-KO-Bear_display_image.jpg
 
Theyre not Russians, most these guys are Chechens, Dagestani, and from the Caucasus region..recognize.
 
Metcalf is thinking about getting into MMA? Do you have a link for that? That's awesome, I'd really be excited to see him fight.

You're spot on with the breakdown of the two dominant styles in Folkstyle. Iowa and Oklahoma State have been producing a lot of great wrestlers for a very long time and a lot of that has to do Gable (and his extended coaching tree) and Smith. I'm curious as to what you mean when you say that Iowa hasn't produced more MMA guys. Do you mean the school? If so, I'm kind of surprised as well but imagine the number of alums is only going to increase as MMA continues to become a more visible career path for ex-wrestlers. The style/state has certainly exerted a huge influence on modern MMA through UFC, most notably via Miletich's fight camp (though his greatest fighter came from across the border in Illinois :icon_chee).

Despite Iowa's stylistic dominance over American MMA, it is worth mentioning that the highest profile NCAA champion wrestler in the UFC, Johny 'Big Rigg' Hendricks, was one of John Smith's great proteges at Oklahoma State. Though it seems that Big Rigg, much like Big Country, has abandoned (at least for now) his proven grappling skills for the siren song of the quick KO.

Metcalf during his senior season was talking about it. I dont know if its going to happen or not but there was interest. He wanted to go the olympic route first but just missed making the team. It really depends how far he pushes trying to go to the international level. I expect him to try this for awhile so who knows but hes that kind of guy that would be great for the sport. I always said if Dan Gable or Tom Brands did MMA, they would be monsters.

When I said Iowa I meant the University of Iowa. For as many elite college wrestlers have gone through the school, they are severely underrepresented in MMA. MSU and Purdue are the doormats in the big ten for wrestling and they have produced Gray Maynard,Jon Fitch, and Rashad Evans. PSU has Bubba Jenkins and Phil Davis. Minnesota had Brock. tOSU has Lance Palmer,Coleman, and Randleman. etc. Im aware Matt Hughes is from Illinois. He is the ultimate wrestler to compare to the Iowa Style though.

Even Iowas big rivals in tOSU and ISU have put out a few names in the UFC.
I would say Hendricks is the big name for wrestling currently. I think the difference between OSU and Iowa in MMA is OSU has a lifeline to the sport. Guys like Randy and Don Frye getting in the sport early really helped out the career moves of guys like Hendricks,Munoz, and Roshholt out of tOSU. If The Brands brothers or Ironside had gone into MMA, I would expect more Hawkeyes in the sport. Im hoping to see more. Pat Angerer, former Iowa LBer and current Colts starting MLB wrestled in HS at the same HS as Milletich and has stated he is interested in pursuing MMA after his football career is over.
 
Russian wrestling is an offshoot of Combat Sambo which is taught to Russian soldiers. American wrestling is not taught as a self defense technique and is a pure sport, so it's not as aggressive as its Russian counterpart.

Bullshit.
 
Thanks iowamma! These are some fascinating background info on folkstyle wrestling! Quite educational! Hughes was one of the most exciting wrestlers in MMA that I can remember. He always pressed the action and took it to his opponents, and he always went for the finish. I don't think there ever was a fight of his that was boring.



Interesting info. Was/is there an MMA fighter who used this style of wrestling?



Is there any specific reason as to why this style of wrestling doesn't transfer well into MMA (as opposed to other style of wrestling, such as Greco-roman)? Perhaps certain techniques that are the foundation of this style are not practical in an MMA setting?



When is he expected to make a move to MMA?

Anyway, thanks for some interesting background info on the various schools of folkstyle wrestling. Very interesting read! :icon_chee

Hughes transition to MMA from wrestling was great because of his striking power. That formula of elite wrestling and striking is a brutal combination in the octagon. Its why Hendricks looks to be such a power and is a scary opponent. Also why hes 9-1 in the octagon.

Oklahoma State has had a LOT of wrestlers in the octagon. Randy Couture,Don Frye,Shane Roller, Johnny Hendricks,Jake Rosholt,Mark Munoz,Daniel Cormier,Mo Lawal. This is not to say all OSU wrestlers followed Smiths ideals or Iowa wrestlers do the Gable Style. One notable National Champion for Iowa was Mark Perry, who was John Smiths nephew and he definitely fit the Smith style more than the Gable Style.
 
Obviously Russia has more great wrestlers but don't pretend that there aren't elite American wrestlers.

That's like saying that there's a huge difference between top America basketball players and top international basketball players.

America has more great basketball players but there are elite international ones too.

Stop trying to talk sense on Sherdog, you fool!
 
I don't, and i don't think i even care to be honest.

What i know is that if more wrestlers tried to do what that russian guy did no one would be complaining about the lack of boringness it would produce.

I have nothing against being a wrestler in MMA, if you can use it to be aggressive, produce damage, always putting your opponent in danger, imposing your pace... and such. Unfortunately that's not the case for a long list of UFC fighters at this point.
 
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