Form Why are Pull Ups so damn hard?

[sakfjgadsyukgf]

You only have around a minute before the lactic acid builds up and then you can only crank out a few more - because you can't fully recover while hanging from the bar unless you have Stephen Hawking legs. So you train to do them as quickly as possible in that first minute or so.

One thing I've always wondered (and this applies to the other pullup thread on here by the big guy)- why not pause between reps? Just bring a chair or stool or box underneath the bar. Big guys can do 1 pullup, then step on the chair or whatever with their hands off their bar for maybe a second or 2- then do another pullup. Then rest for a second, then do another one. Etc.

I mean think about it, everyone's pausing a bit between squat or deadlift or bench reps. Why not bring a chair and do the same for pullups? Would make it easier for big guys, or women, or kids starting out. Would also make it easier if you're going for heavy weighted sets. As you say lactic acid builds up with continuous effort, better to rest between reps like every other exercise

 

[ChickenBrother]

One thing I've always wondered (and this applies to the other pullup thread on here by the big guy)- why not pause between reps? Just bring a chair or stool or box underneath the bar. Big guys can do 1 pullup, then step on the chair or whatever with their hands off their bar for maybe a second or 2- then do another pullup. Then rest for a second, then do another one. Etc.

I mean think about it, everyone's pausing a bit between squat or deadlift or bench reps. Why not bring a chair and do the same for pullups? Would make it easier for big guys, or women, or kids starting out. Would also make it easier if you're going for heavy weighted sets. As you say lactic acid builds up with continuous effort, better to rest between reps like every other exercise

No reason you can't do that - that would be like greasing the groove but obviously not the same as hanging from the bar continuously if you're going for a record. And your analogy doesn't quite make sense. Pausing between reps on SBD is still bearing the weight, just as you're doing between reps on pull ups. What you're suggesting would be like racking the bar for 1 or 2 seconds between SBD reps.

 

[NoSmilez]

One thing I've always wondered (and this applies to the other pullup thread on here by the big guy)- why not pause between reps? Just bring a chair or stool or box underneath the bar. Big guys can do 1 pullup, then step on the chair or whatever with their hands off their bar for maybe a second or 2- then do another pullup. Then rest for a second, then do another one. Etc.

I mean think about it, everyone's pausing a bit between squat or deadlift or bench reps. Why not bring a chair and do the same for pullups? Would make it easier for big guys, or women, or kids starting out. Would also make it easier if you're going for heavy weighted sets. As you say lactic acid builds up with continuous effort, better to rest between reps like every other exercise

Pausing doesn't make a bench or squat easier. It makes it harder because it is deadweight. For squat you are still accumulating axial fatigue just having the weight on your shoulders. It is definitely not a rest position if you are pausing at the bottom. Most people can bench heavy but they also use their chest as a trampoline instead of just touch and go. Pausing eliminates that

If you want to just let go and rest then it is fine too. It's just like that Pavel method. Other methods to make the pull up easier would be bands.

 

[pugilistico]

I've been adding pauses at the top for several seconds with slow eccentrics for some low rep sets.
One cue that's helped me is to "bend the bar" and keep my elbows tucked in.
I haven't increased much in the number of max reps in a set, but I have been able to increase my reps overall. I do 5 sets each work out and as many reps as possible per set.
Gone from 8, 6, 5, 5, 4 to 8, 7, 6, 6, 5. Nothing crazy but I'm wonder if strength isn't the issue but rather fatigue.

 

[JimRussel]

They're not hard, you're just weak.

 

[cincymma79]

My pull up improvement really sucks and I can't help but think there must be something I'm missing.

I always wanted to be able to do comfortably do pullups (like 20+) but it's always evaded me. The most I've ever been able to do in one set was 18 and this was when I was the strongest. I was doing heavy compound lifts regularly and doing pullups at every workout. But this was years ago and in retrospect, I don't think I was doing strict pullups (my chest wasn't touching the bar).

Fast forward to now where I lost a lot of strength due to injuries and just got interested in doing other things than lifting. I'm currently recovering from a herniated disk and only doing upperbody exercises since doing anything lowerbody hurts. I figure I would use this as an opportunity to train as much as I can to the extent that I can while I'm recovering. I want to get better at pullups.

I go to a very small, ill-equipped but very cheap gym which is fine because I can't do much anyway. I basically just do pull ups, bench, seated OHP, and lat pull downs along with some dumbbell and cable exercises. I've been doing this for a couple months now. 2-3 times a week. I'm content with how fast I got my bench numbers up. I went from doing 5x5 with 60kg to now doing 90 for reps. Increased my lat pulldown numbers as well.

But my pullup improvement is so damn slow. I started with doing 5 per set to currently max 8 reps in a set. I can do much less in my subsequent sets (5-4). I've gotten better everything else by simply doing more of it, but pullups are the one exercise where this approach doesn't seem to work. And I'm implementing all the tips I've gotten online like scapular retraction, making my body straight, using pauses and slow eccentrics.

Is pullup improvement always like this? Am I missing something?

I've been watching a few videos like this guy who can do some impressive stuff. He says your brachs are important and suggests forearm exercises. I'm doing more grip strength and forearm exercises to see if it helps.

Can’t do pull ups?


But yeah they can be hard if you have no technique. I can do them with two fingers, that’s what she said. I tried to do one finger like a video I saw a 100 pound women’s do and that shit was too painful to go all out but I still don’t think I could do ir

 

[Razberry]

My pull up improvement really sucks and I can't help but think there must be something I'm missing.

I always wanted to be able to do comfortably do pullups (like 20+) but it's always evaded me. The most I've ever been able to do in one set was 18 and this was when I was the strongest. I was doing heavy compound lifts regularly and doing pullups at every workout. But this was years ago and in retrospect, I don't think I was doing strict pullups (my chest wasn't touching the bar).

Fast forward to now where I lost a lot of strength due to injuries and just got interested in doing other things than lifting. I'm currently recovering from a herniated disk and only doing upperbody exercises since doing anything lowerbody hurts. I figure I would use this as an opportunity to train as much as I can to the extent that I can while I'm recovering. I want to get better at pullups.

I go to a very small, ill-equipped but very cheap gym which is fine because I can't do much anyway. I basically just do pull ups, bench, seated OHP, and lat pull downs along with some dumbbell and cable exercises. I've been doing this for a couple months now. 2-3 times a week. I'm content with how fast I got my bench numbers up. I went from doing 5x5 with 60kg to now doing 90 for reps. Increased my lat pulldown numbers as well.

But my pullup improvement is so damn slow. I started with doing 5 per set to currently max 8 reps in a set. I can do much less in my subsequent sets (5-4). I've gotten better everything else by simply doing more of it, but pullups are the one exercise where this approach doesn't seem to work. And I'm implementing all the tips I've gotten online like scapular retraction, making my body straight, using pauses and slow eccentrics.

Is pullup improvement always like this? Am I missing something?

I've been watching a few videos like this guy who can do some impressive stuff. He says your brachs are important and suggests forearm exercises. I'm doing more grip strength and forearm exercises to see if it helps.

18 pullups is very impressive provided they are done without all the shenanigans. What you are experiencing is most likely just the law of diminishing returns. The speed of gains aren't linear, the early honeymoon does not last.

 

[pugilistico]

18 pullups is very impressive provided they are done without all the shenanigans. What you are experiencing is most likely just the law of diminishing returns. The speed of gains aren't linear, the early honeymoon does not last.

With my current pullup progress, there has been no honey moon phase. I was stuck doing 5-6 reps per set for months it felt until I was able to get to 8 at my freshest. Recently I got up to 10 so there's some progress. My pushing progress is so much faster in comparison. I added 30kg to my bench for 5 reps in the same time I added 5-7kg to my pull ups for 5.

 

[pugilistico]

A note about programming: I'm confused.

My usual approach to progress isn't working with pull ups. As I mentioned it takes forever to increase reps per set, unlike with other movements. In the time I added 5-7kg to my weighted pullups, I added 30 to my bench. I added 2 reps to my body weight pullups at my freshest in the time I added 4 to my inverted rows (done after the pullups).

It's so hard to add more reps per set. So I worked around this by adding extra sets: 7-8 instead of 5, and more overall volume by doing pullups more often throughout the week.

Now I've saw a couple videos on youtube that suggest doing many sets of low reps (1-2) but only once or twice a week, which is a lot less volume than I've been doing. Apparently the McGill approach is to practice each pull up with as much power as possible with good technique. A squat university video I saw said this should increase my rep per set capacity.

 

[Razberry]

I think a lot of the speed with which your lifts increase depends on your leverages, as in how you are built. People with long arms tend to be better pullers, people with short arms tend to be better pressers. People usually have a lift or two that really stand out. Body weight and height plays a role also of course.

Consider that adding another rep to a set of pullups is a lot of added work. The weight added to that set is at least your entire body weight, and even more if you are doing then weighted. With the benchpress you can sneak on 2 pounds per side and more smoothly increase the resistance from week to week and it may give you the perception of gaining strength faster.

If you want to get nitty gritty about it I also think that most people have back muscles that are made up of predominantly slow twitch muscle fibers that tend to respond better to higher reps. How much of an impact this has in reality I have no idea, I don't know if anyone actually does.

With all that said for whatever reason I have never seen anyone being able to put up the same numbers for pullups as they have for the benchpress for example. I think the world record press is something insane like 780 pounds. I don't think anyone has ever lifted anything like that for a pullup that I know of, so maybe there is something to it.

Anyway, I think all you can really do is experiment and keep giving it your best effort.

 

[stevenandrew]

My pull up improvement really sucks and I can't help but think there must be something I'm missing.

I always wanted to be able to do comfortably do pullups (like 20+) but it's always evaded me. The most I've ever been able to do in one set was 18 and this was when I was the strongest. I was doing heavy compound lifts regularly and doing pullups at every workout. But this was years ago and in retrospect, I don't think I was doing strict pullups (my chest wasn't touching the bar).

Fast forward to now where I lost a lot of strength due to injuries and just got interested in doing other things than lifting. I'm currently recovering from a herniated disk and only doing upperbody exercises since doing anything lowerbody hurts. I figure I would use this as an opportunity to train as much as I can to the extent that I can while I'm recovering. I want to get better at pullups.

I go to a very small, ill-equipped but very cheap gym which is fine because I can't do much anyway. I basically just do pull ups, bench, seated OHP, and lat pull downs along with some dumbbell and cable exercises. I've been doing this for a couple months now. 2-3 times a week. I'm content with how fast I got my bench numbers up. I went from doing 5x5 with 60kg to now doing 90 for reps. Increased my lat pulldown numbers as well.

But my pullup improvement is so damn slow. I started with doing 5 per set to currently max 8 reps in a set. I can do much less in my subsequent sets (5-4). I've gotten better everything else by simply doing more of it, but pullups are the one exercise where this approach doesn't seem to work. And I'm implementing all the tips I've gotten online like scapular retraction, making my body straight, using pauses and slow eccentrics.
Jabal Ali Metro Station
Is pullup improvement always like this? Am I missing something?

I've been watching a few videos like this guy who can do some impressive stuff. He says your brachs are important and suggests forearm exercises. I'm doing more grip strength and forearm exercises to see if it helps.

Increase pull-up frequency with grease the groove (GTG)—multiple submaximal sets daily. Strengthen brachialis, grip, and forearms with weighted chin-ups, hammer curls, and holds. Do pull-ups earlier in workouts to reduce fatigue. Avoid excessive slow eccentrics and pauses every set to prevent burnout. Maintain high protein intake and monitor body composition. If possible, add weighted pull-ups once you hit 10+ reps. Progress is slow but consistent effort will yield results.

 

[Deleted member 609094]

Hey OP.

I feel you.

I used one of those 20pullups programs a dozen or so years ago and hit 19. But, I was also 10kg lighter.

I'm almost 2m tall and around 125kg. A few months of no pullups and I was like a beginner again. Back to 4/5 max. Something I did find was that my cardio conditioning made a huge difference. I simply couldn't recover well enough to shift my bulk around. That scuppered my sets/reps massively.

I have a local park luckily with pullups frames. I go approx every 5 days, for the last 3 weeks for multiple sets, low reps.
Supersetting.
Session 1: 2 pullups, 6 dips. 15 sets.
Session 2: 2 pullups, 8 dips. 15 sets.
Session 3: 3 pullups, 6/8 dips. 12 sets.
Tomorrow: 4 pullups, 6 dips. Maybe 10 sets.

Dips aren't essential but exhausting myself and improving recovery are big.
When I was doing only pullups, then waiting around, I felt like I was missing out on something.

 

[Kforcer]

My pull up improvement really sucks and I can't help but think there must be something I'm missing.

I always wanted to be able to do comfortably do pullups (like 20+) but it's always evaded me. The most I've ever been able to do in one set was 18 and this was when I was the strongest. I was doing heavy compound lifts regularly and doing pullups at every workout. But this was years ago and in retrospect, I don't think I was doing strict pullups (my chest wasn't touching the bar).

Fast forward to now where I lost a lot of strength due to injuries and just got interested in doing other things than lifting. I'm currently recovering from a herniated disk and only doing upperbody exercises since doing anything lowerbody hurts. I figure I would use this as an opportunity to train as much as I can to the extent that I can while I'm recovering. I want to get better at pullups.

I go to a very small, ill-equipped but very cheap gym which is fine because I can't do much anyway. I basically just do pull ups, bench, seated OHP, and lat pull downs along with some dumbbell and cable exercises. I've been doing this for a couple months now. 2-3 times a week. I'm content with how fast I got my bench numbers up. I went from doing 5x5 with 60kg to now doing 90 for reps. Increased my lat pulldown numbers as well.

But my pullup improvement is so damn slow. I started with doing 5 per set to currently max 8 reps in a set. I can do much less in my subsequent sets (5-4). I've gotten better everything else by simply doing more of it, but pullups are the one exercise where this approach doesn't seem to work. And I'm implementing all the tips I've gotten online like scapular retraction, making my body straight, using pauses and slow eccentrics.

Is pullup improvement always like this? Am I missing something?

I've been watching a few videos like this guy who can do some impressive stuff. He says your brachs are important and suggests forearm exercises. I'm doing more grip strength and forearm exercises to see if it helps.

Well, the stronger your lat pulldowns get, the better for your pull-ups. I think I would suggest working on shoulder retraction and trying to get your shoulder blades to touch as you pull back your shoulders. That's a key part of front levers but I think it can help you to fully incorporate your back muscles into your pull-ups as well.

Oh, I see that you've already gotten that tip...

...I have one other tip in my bag then. I would try doing half pull-ups on some days or maybe a set where after you've done a certain number of normal pull-ups, you switch, without letting go, to half pull-ups. That's not going to be popular with everyone, but doing half pull-ups on my way to being able to do full pull-ups was a huge part of my journey. It allowed me to get in more reps and thus work the relevant muscles more and to also just give me a sense of confidence with the exercise.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

I used to love pull-ups and was making good progress. Tore both biceps and never got them fixed. I don’t even bother doing them now.

 

[period]

Pull-ups are only hard if you don't do enough of them, and if you're big. Becoming good at pull-ups will likely take at least a year of work, possibly more, becoming decent (20+ reps) should be doable in half a year if you start from 5-8 reps.
Now, there are a lot of programs that people swear by, some of which have already been mentioned like GTG, then there's a program called fighter pull-ups and so on.
Personally, all I needed to do to get my pull-ups past 25 reps was 1-2 submaximal sets daily. I called these BDRM-1 (Bad Day Rep Max – 1), and what I meant by that was taking the number of reps I could get under the worst thinkable conditions (no sleep and a broken coffee machine, for example), then doing one rep less than that. I would try to bump up that number by one every week, and if necessary reducing the BDRM-1 by up to two reps if necessary, then building again.
I did the RM-1 as a teenager, and would go to max every 4-8 weeks maybe. But then again, as long as the numbers climb, there is rarely a need to test for max. I'd suggest giving it a shot for say, 8 weeks, which should get you from 8 (good day rep max) to at least 14 (BDRM-1) if you don't need to bump the reps back. If you manage that, you may want to stick with it for a while longer, because adding 8 reps to your worst day max is no mean feat. But then again, I'd say your rep count is fairly conservative, I used to be 2-3 reps under my "good day" max most of the time. Back in the day, I was usually doing two sets per workout - as the first and the last exercise, to ensure maximum rest in between. However, I always tended to be fairly aggressive about my training numbers, which worked for me - you'll have to find your own light, so to speak.

Later in life, I used different methods to get my pull-up numbers higher. Sometimes I did higher reps with added weight (on different occasions, I got to 20 reps + 10 kg and 12 reps + 32 kg), sometimes I used partial reps (like 40-60 reps unbroken from 90° up), and one time, I went totally crazy and did 40 sets of 15 reps in under an hour. All in all, my personal bests went up to 50 reps unbroken (slight kip) and + 65 kg for a single (no kip). Both happened at age 24-26 at a bodyweight of around 78 kg, after I had been doing pull ups almost daily for 11-13 years.

 

[nhbfan8080]

I've been adding pauses at the top for several seconds with slow eccentrics for some low rep sets.
One cue that's helped me is to "bend the bar" and keep my elbows tucked in.
I haven't increased much in the number of max reps in a set, but I have been able to increase my reps overall. I do 5 sets each work out and as many reps as possible per set.
Gone from 8, 6, 5, 5, 4 to 8, 7, 6, 6, 5. Nothing crazy but I'm wonder if strength isn't the issue but rather fatigue.

Are those bodyweight pullups. I wouldn't bother with weighted until you can do 10 for 3 sets or somewhere close to that.

You might want to try scap pull ups if you haven't been doing them already. Do them with a pause at the top for a few reps. They help for proper activation of the back muscles instead of starting the pullup with the arms.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Doing negative and partials is the best way to get pull-ups. Once you can do one just do a bunch of singles until you are able to do 2 and keep going from there.

I wouldnt do them every day as you need recovery from them just like any other exercise.

 

[period]

I wouldnt do them every day as you need recovery from them just like any other exercise.

If you approach it as training a motion, you can - provided the intensity and volume is selected at an appropriate level. In my experience, the people who are best at pull-ups all do them at high frequency, daily or almost daily. And most of them additionally do a sport with lots of pulling motions - wrestling, climbing, gymnastics, swimming...

 

[ROcknrollracing]

One thing about Greasing the Groove is, it takes enormous mental discipline(for me anyways). There is always the tendency to try to do more. It doesn't help that Pavel Tsatsouline who recommends this method didn't put a limit on the number of sets, which I guess would be different for different people so that makes sense. The issue is, you don't know how many sets you can do and can end up doing so many sets that you are fucked up for days on end. It is very deceptive the toll it takes on your body, because when you are doing only half of what you normally do, but you do 2 times as many sets as you would normally do, you inevitably fuck yourself up. This is all my own personal experience, hopefully someone will learn what I didn't learn. Do this method with caution, and say you can normally do 40 pullups in a day. If you are doing grease the groove, maybe do 45, but don't go overboard and do 80. It will fuck you up, in a way you have not been fucked up before.

This is why period. There is nothing special about pull-ups they are the same as any other exercise. Pushups are the same thing.

 

[period]

This is why period. There is nothing special about pull-ups they are the same as any other exercise. Pushups are the same thing.

You are correct, there is absolutely nothing special about pull-ups or push-ups - so I treat them like any other medium-intensity exercise, and unless there is a specific reason not to do so (e.g. pre-existing joint problem, injuries...) I do both pretty much every day, along with squats at moderate intensity (partner or single leg) etc. I treat them as movement practice and I want them to feel easy, so that's how I always trained them and that's what they have become for me. You have repeatedly referred to monkeys as an example for strength; you can argue that that's mostly due to genetics, I'd argue that's mostly due to how they live and waht they do day to day - although I don't argue that genetics are a part of it.

I would agree that once you approach higher loads and intensities, the game changes, and you either need to maximize recovery or reduce both intensity and volume. There are exercises - both bodyweight and with weights - I wouldn't or couldn't do every day, at least not at the intensity and volume I like to use them with, because I need longer to recover, and if I try to move past that boundary, I get overuse problems or injuries. For example, I know from experience I can do most variations of one-arm push-ups every day if I want, because they are easy for me. On the other hand, I can't do that with one-arm pull-up progressions, because they are harder for me and cause a lot of elbow strain, and I can't do that with full AB-wheel rollouts, because they make my abs sore and if I'm not careful with when I stop, I feel them in the lower back as well. So I select the appropriate volume, intensity and frequency, and I'm good. On the other hand, I can do weighted pull-ups just fine every day, up to about my 10-12 rep max, 1-2 reps shy of failure. I think that may be due to the fact that I am a lot more stable in weighted pull-ups than in one-arm pull-ups, and can control my movement path better. Plus I rarely ever did one-arm pull-up progressions in the 10-12 RM range - maybe I should try that...