Who's the greatest WMMA fighter of all-time?

[PurpleStorm]

gonna give some props to joanna here - she had 6 belt defenses, beat 2 other champs (carla and jessica) and only ever lost to other champs (rose, val, weili) in entertaining fights. for a long time i didn't like her, but when she dropped the boogeywoman act and chowed down some humble pie i changed my mind. i could look back now and appreciate her as a fighter - highly technical, high fight intelligence and definitely one of the wmma greats.

Agree. JJ has been in epic battles and never backed down. Held the belt for a long time. Always had exciting fights like that classic vs. Weii.

Also adding some things about Valentina Shevchenko. Very long title reign. Highly professional, technical and skilled. Dominated Grasso after losing the belt to her. And she's still going!

 

[Blastbeat]

This is the revisionist history here, as most of her titles have been won in the modern era, and was still can crushing, in the most dog shit division in the sport.

Pretending Cat Zingano has been worthy competition to anyone in the past ten years is laughable.

Also, how did Cyborg beat a better Holly Holm? Holm has been the same fighter her entire mma career. Only difference is Nunes stopped her, while Cyborg pulled her to a higher weight class, and had to settle for a decision.

Larissa Pacheco is a can crusher in the same mold as Cyborg. Jessica Andrade has a win over Pacheco, maybe we should put her in contention for WGOAT. Kayla Harrison has two wins over Pacheco.

Unlike you, I watched the third fight. It wasn’t anything resembling a whipping, and more along the lines of Pacheco studying the 2 previous losses to Harrison and just doing enough to shut Harrison down.

Dude must be another Ray Elbe burner account

i didnt know "modern era" of WMMA was 2008. ok, then create a bunch of WFW fighters she can fight and send her back in time to fight them. be sure to complete building your time machine before you do this.
what the fuck else do you want? she can only fight fighters who are there and she isnt able to make WBW consistently. your arguments are asinine.

 

[Blastbeat]

Ali was the greater fighter because he has a better resume than Ken Norton. Nunes has a better resume more than Cyborg AND beat her.

Cyborg only has one win over anyone even considered in the top 10 in Holly Holm and Nunes beat her more impressively.

Also I love how you "personally respect" the steroid cheat and weight bully. Lol

Cyborg popped once and then never popped again. any accusations of roids from that point on are hearsay.
"weight bullies" dont exist. if you can make the weight, you can fight at the weight.

 

[Blastbeat]

Okay she has only fought six women who have not fought lighter than 145. So in addition to her record being padded with cans it is padded with smaller fighters. Six of the women she fought have fought at 125. Of the six women at 145, three of them have zero wins.

To accomplish this she has come in heavy four times, failed two drug tests and her / her team tried to cheat by altering a weigh-in scale when she came in seven pounds over fighting another bulked up 135 pound fighter.

Even today 145 is a wasteland of talent.

When you compare the performance of the two women against mutual opponents guess who shut them down quicker? Not Cyborg.

And as Amanda can actually make 135 while Cyborg refuses to make a real attempt to do so Amanda has fought larger women. Cyborg never has.

There is no comparison between the two.

Cyborg cant make WBW. not healthily. we see how that cut is affecting Kayla Harrison currently - she just had to get hospitalized. hopefully that wont have long term effects on her health. cutting weight to the point of being unhealthy is not good for the sport. Amanda's a smaller woman so she's able to make that cut in a healthy manner.
"Even today 145 is a wasteland of talent." - yeah but again how is that Cyborg's fault?

 

[leto1776]

i didnt know "modern era" of WMMA was 2008. ok, then create a bunch of WFW fighters she can fight and send her back in time to fight them. be sure to complete building your time machine before you do this.
what the fuck else do you want? she can only fight fighters who are there and she isnt able to make WBW consistently. your arguments are asinine.

Featherweight as a weight class existed by the time of Strikeforce, yes. Even then, and certainly since, she mostly fought ballooned up bantamweights.

Cyborg popped once and then never popped again. any accusations of roids from that point on are hearsay.
"weight bullies" dont exist. if you can make the weight, you can fight at the weight.

Now who’s making asinine arguments? She most certainly popped more than once. The second time, she had to run all the way to Brazil (where she was no longer living) to bribe a doctor to give her a prescription form. She then got a BS retroactive TUE. She absolutely pissed hot, and she absolutely failed to disclose on oa form that she was taking a banned substance.

 

[RockyLockridge]

I would say Ronda was the most exciting by far.
Rose gotta be above Joanna

Rose is not above, Or even near Joanna.

Shes somewhere hanging in the lower top 10 with esparza and Andrade

 

[Blastbeat]

Featherweight as a weight class existed by the time of Strikeforce, yes. Even then, and certainly since, she mostly fought ballooned up bantamweights.

Now who’s making asinine arguments? She most certainly popped more than once. The second time, she had to run all the way to Brazil (where she was no longer living) to bribe a doctor to give her a prescription form. She then got a BS retroactive TUE. She absolutely pissed hot, and she absolutely failed to disclose on oa form that she was taking a banned substance.

WFW has always been a division that's barren. there just arent a lot of women that big. so you gotta fight who is there. i dont believe in shitting on a weight class in its entirety to downplay a fighter's accomplishments. people do that when they talk about Mighty Mouse too.
other than the failed test that led to a NC in Strikeforce, where and when is the other incident? i dont see anything about it on her wiki. was it in boxing or kickboxing or WMMA?

Rose is not above, Or even near Joanna.

Shes somewhere hanging in the lower top 10 with esparza and Andrade

but Rose beat Joanna twice, once with a KO. i dont see how that doesnt make them close. she also beat Weili twice, once by KO. Joanna lost to Weili twice, once by KO.
Rose is very inconsistent and didnt make as many title defenses as Joanna but this carries the same energy as people saying Val is better than Nunes.

 

[RockyLockridge]

WFW has always been a division that's barren. there just arent a lot of women that big. so you gotta fight who is there. i dont believe in shitting on a weight class in its entirety to downplay a fighter's accomplishments. people do that when they talk about Mighty Mouse too.
other than the failed test that led to a NC in Strikeforce, where and when is the other incident? i dont see anything about it on her wiki. was it in boxing or kickboxing or WMMA?


but Rose beat Joanna twice, once with a KO. i dont see how that doesnt make them close. she also beat Weili twice, once by KO. Joanna lost to Weili twice, once by KO.
Rose is very inconsistent and didnt make as many title defenses as Joanna but this carries the same energy as people saying Val is better than Nunes.

Rose lost to Esparza twice who Joanna dominated and KO

Rose also lost to andrade who Joanna dominated

Rose also lost to karolina who Joanna dominated

Joanna Never lost a non title fight until the very last fight of her career (against a former and future champion)

Joanna has also fought better competition like Gadelha and shevchenko as well.

Joanna has already retired (06/22) and still has more wins and less losses than rose.

Joanna was 14-0 with 5 title fight wins at one point. Rose has never won 4 fights in a row. Joanna has more consecutive title defenses than rose has consecutive wins at any point in her career.

Also I scored the rematch between rose and joanna 234 joanna, So i dont really buy she was better.

I just see it like a Weidman and anderson type deal, Although calling rose Weidman is very flattering

 

[Eater of Souls]

Cyborg cant make WBW. not healthily. we see how that cut is affecting Kayla Harrison currently - she just had to get hospitalized. hopefully that wont have long term effects on her health. cutting weight to the point of being unhealthy is not good for the sport. Amanda's a smaller woman so she's able to make that cut in a healthy manner.
"Even today 145 is a wasteland of talent." - yeah but again how is that Cyborg's fault?

It does not have to be her fault to be reality.

She could drop some muscle. She spent a lot of time hitting the iron, eating and juicing to get where she is. For a woman to gain muscle in a cardio-dominant activity is the result of personal choice. So again, her fault. Sure, she is naturally a large woman, but she has gotten larger and it is not like she tripped and fell into a pile of muscles.

And, of course, you cherry-picked your reply, so I guess you agree with the other reasons to exclude Cyborg?

 

[Eater of Souls]

Cyborg popped once and then never popped again. any accusations of roids from that point on are hearsay.
"weight bullies" dont exist. if you can make the weight, you can fight at the weight.

She pissed hot for Spironolactone, which she failed to disclose. She was given a bullshit TUE following the drug testing failure. Said compound is used by some women using AAS to limit the virilizing side effects.

 

[Blastbeat]

It does not have to be her fault to be reality.

She could drop some muscle. She spent a lot of time hitting the iron, eating and juicing to get where she is. For a woman to gain muscle in a cardio-dominant activity is the result of personal choice. So again, her fault. Sure, she is naturally a large woman, but she has gotten larger and it is not like she tripped and fell into a pile of muscles.

And, of course, you cherry-picked your reply, so I guess you agree with the other reasons to exclude Cyborg?

but with her body like that for so long - how can you drop muscle in a healthy manner? i used Kayla as an example since she has a similar build and is going through difficulties relating to weight cuts. i dont know how or if it can even be done.

the other arguments i addressed in other posts - WFW has historically been barren so smaller fighters inevitably had to fight there. i dont think missing weight is a good thing, but im not going to dismiss her entire career due to some instances where she missed weight. im arguing calling her entire career can crushing is simply incorrect. its typical hand-waving.

when and where was the Spironolactone incident? i cant fucking find anything about it on her wiki or any other fight tracking website. the wiki only lists the Strikeforce NC.

 

[Eater of Souls]

but with her body like that for so long - how can you drop muscle in a healthy manner? i used Kayla as an example since she has a similar build and is going through difficulties relating to weight cuts. i dont know how or if it can even be done.

the other arguments i addressed in other posts - WFW has historically been barren so smaller fighters inevitably had to fight there. i dont think missing weight is a good thing, but im not going to dismiss her entire career due to some instances where she missed weight. im arguing calling her entire career can crushing is simply incorrect. its typical hand-waving.

when and where was the Spironolactone incident? i cant fucking find anything about it on her wiki or any other fight tracking website. the wiki only lists the Strikeforce NC.

You drop muscle safely over time. Rather like I did. In my case it happened no matter how hard I tried as I got old (57). And when you train in a cardio intensive sport it is even easier. All you are doing is making excuses that fly in the face of science.
Going back to above: We have no evidence of Kayla has ever used AAS. Not a good comparison as the use of AAS breeds additional muscle cell nuclei over time so this is another fault of Cyborg's: had she not cheated, it would not be as hard to drop weight.

Just because WFW has been historically barren does nothing to support your defense of Cyborg, quite the opposite when by in your own admission she fights in a barren weight class - her competition was bad.

I did not dismiss her entire career because of a few (four) instances that she missed weight. I dismissed it because of two drug testing failures, missing weight four times, fighting smaller women and fighting the terrible excuse for opponents in her weight class. Stop with the straw man.

I am not going through your posts. I did execute the complex task of using google, though:

First google result: https://www.mmafighting.com/2016/12...for-diuretic-facing-one-year-usada-suspension

 

[PaulieVegas27]

Ronda not even on the list?

Ronda was a one-trick pony who once you figured out how to avoid the arm bar was not very good.

 

[leto1776]

i dont believe in shitting on a weight class in its entirety to downplay a fighter's accomplishments. people do that when they talk about Mighty Mouse too.

The difference is, it’s true W.R.T Cyborg, today as it was then.

where and when is the other incident? i dont see anything about it on her wiki. was it in boxing or kickboxing or WMMA?

Cyborg popped for diuretic, facing one-year ban

Cris Cyborg tested positive for a diuretic called spironolactone, she said Thursday in a statement.

www.mmafighting.com

If you’re gonna put this much effort into defending a cheater, it’s better to know their history, as this was huge news at the time, since it came right after she turned down the inaugural fight for the UFC featherweight title, and was also the reason for GDR refusing to fight her afterwards

 

[Prince Nephilim]

Nunes and I didn’t know it was debatable

 

[blaseblase]

Cyborg popped once and then never popped again. any accusations of roids from that point on are hearsay.
"weight bullies" dont exist. if you can make the weight, you can fight at the weight.

*twice

Even if it had been once, lol at the idea that's some kind of excuse. No one is under the illusion Brock and Overeem didn't roid for most of their careers. Cyborg has an unnatural physique and hasn't been drug tested for most of her career.

 

[blaseblase]

WFW has always been a division that's barren. there just arent a lot of women that big. so you gotta fight who is there. i dont believe in shitting on a weight class in its entirety to downplay a fighter's accomplishments. people do that when they talk about Mighty Mouse too.

Mighty Mouse fought and beat Cejudo, Benavidez 2x, Horiguchi, Dodson 2x, Moraes 2x, McCall, Torres. Who did Cyborg beat? We're 6 pages deep and no one can list any elite wins while Nunes has multiple GOAT level fighters on her resume. They aren't comparable whatsoever.

If Cyborg had lost to Nunes but done other great things it would at least be debatable (like Aldo v Volk) but she didn't. She has worse accomplishments AND she lost the head to head battle when they were both in their prime. There's no contest here.

 

[jsbx45]

Arguably there isn't one LOL.

But if you were going to argue the point, then Ronda needs to be on that list.

Then, the obvious answer is the Lioness

 

[BigMuffler]

Rose lost to Esparza twice who Joanna dominated and KO

Rose also lost to andrade who Joanna dominated

Rose also lost to karolina who Joanna dominated

Joanna Never lost a non title fight until the very last fight of her career (against a former and future champion)

Joanna has also fought better competition like Gadelha and shevchenko as well.

Joanna has already retired (06/22) and still has more wins and less losses than rose.

Joanna was 14-0 with 5 title fight wins at one point. Rose has never won 4 fights in a row. Joanna has more consecutive title defenses than rose has consecutive wins at any point in her career.

Also I scored the rematch between rose and joanna 234 joanna, So i dont really buy she was better.

I just see it like a Weidman and anderson type deal, Although calling rose Weidman is very flattering

Rose is Pettis

 

[BigMuffler]

Cyborg cant make WBW. not healthily. we see how that cut is affecting Kayla Harrison currently - she just had to get hospitalized. hopefully that wont have long term effects on her health. cutting weight to the point of being unhealthy is not good for the sport. Amanda's a smaller woman so she's able to make that cut in a healthy manner.
"Even today 145 is a wasteland of talent." - yeah but again how is that Cyborg's fault?

It's not her fault but you can't be GOAT if your division sucks so much you can barely claim 5 good wins in your career. Or could a male super heavyweight who's 30-2 be the male GOAT?