Who is the greatest heavyweight since Muhammad Ali?

[Sunfish]

It's either Tyson or Holmes. The only debate is cause Holmes fought in a weaker period and Tyson's prime was cut short by everything going on around him and then eventually the bullshit rape case.

Tyson’s lawyer putting him on the stand, and mike saying something along the lines of “I’ve raped people before but I didn’t rape her” probably doesn’t help you get acquitted in a rape trial.

 

[uptheirons!]

Tyson’s lawyer putting him on the stand, and mike saying something along the lines of “I’ve raped people before but I didn’t rape her” probably doesn’t help you get acquitted in a rape trial.

That degenerate whore having made a false rape claim 21 months earlier against someone else, and going to his hotel at 1am don't help her credibility.

 

[Sunfish]

That degenerate whore having made a false rape claim 21 months earlier against someone else, and going to his hotel at 1am don't help her credibility.

I’m not saying it does. But it was the defense who put mike on the stand and gave him the rope to hang himself.

 

[uptheirons!]

I’m not saying it does. But it was the defense who put mike on the stand and gave him the rope to hang himself.

Yes, and it's King who set him up with the inept lawyer, everyone knows these things. I never argued the defense did a good job, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[pakimahi]

Great heavyweights don't get put to SLEEP by a journeyman. Ali never got cut, let alone ko'd or put to sleep. And Ali would've never bitched out from re-matching the guy who gave him his toughest fight with 10 days notice and a bullshit doctor stoppage when he was behind on all three cards.

well we were discussing post Ali, Ali was number one no doubt. As for Vitali, come on how are you gonna hold that against him? He didn't owe him jack shit.He beat him fair and square, and felt the sport didn't have anything else to offer him, and he retired. You could've made that point IF he came back and had a long career fighting other guys and Vitali was his mando or something. As for beeing put to sleep, man you get hit in the right spot on your chin, I don't care who you are, you will go to sleep. This is a petty point to use as a boxing fan or a practitioner

 

[moosaev]

I’m not saying it does. But it was the defense who put mike on the stand and gave him the rope to hang himself.

Wasn't Mike's lawyer a tax accountant or something? He had a shitty defense team.

 

[lolo 06]

Lewis or Holmes for me

 

[ssx]

Since the title says greatest, I take that to mean in ring accomplishments. Going on that alone, I’d say:
Lennox Lewis then Wladimir Klitschko.

 

[proncley]

Since the title says greatest, I take that to mean in ring accomplishments. Going on that alone, I’d say:
Lennox Lewis then Wladimir Klitschko.

Holmes had more title defences than Lennox.

 

[Hagler]

Holmes had more title defences than Lennox.

Lennox beat all his opponents and overall his wins are better.

 

[proncley]

Lennox beat all his opponents and overall his wins are better.

Got knocked out twice in the process, something that never happened to Holmes during his reign. Also Holmes during his reign went 48-0 into his mid-late 30s, until finally losing a close fight against Spinks. I don't think Lennox has an advantage as far as that goes.

As far as wins goes - yes Lennox has Holyfield and Vitali Klitschko, but aside from that? It's not like Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams were poor opposition. I think we can also agree that Larry Holmes would beat a 37 year old Holyfield too.

And again: Larry at 42 dealt better with Ray Mercer than Lennox in his prime.

Lennox Lewis really isn't more accomplished than Larry Holmes when we take a closer look.

 

[Hagler]

Got knocked out twice in the process, something that never happened to Holmes during his reign. Also Holmes during his reign went 48-0 into his mid-late 30s, until finally losing a close fight against Spinks. I don't think Lennox has an advantage as far as that goes.

As far as wins goes - yes Lennox has Holyfield and Vitali Klitschko, but aside from that? It's not like Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams were poor opposition. I think we can also agree that Larry Holmes would beat a 37 year old Holyfield too.

And again: Larry at 42 dealt better with Ray Mercer than Lennox in his prime.

Lennox Lewis really isn't more accomplished than Larry Holmes when we take a closer look.

He is. It's OK to think otherwise though. That's pretty close.

 

[proncley]

He is. It's OK to think otherwise though. That's pretty close.

At least I delivered arguments. You just say that he is.

Lennox was the most accomplished of his time. But Larry put in a lot of work in the 70s and 80s, fought the best, had more title defences, never lost. I don't see what Lennox did that gives him the edge.

 

[Hagler]

At least I delivered arguments. You just say that he is.

Lennox was the most accomplished of his time. But Larry put in a lot of work in the 70s and 80s, fought the best, had more title defences, never lost. I don't see what Lennox did that gives him the edge.

Reading his record is enough and it makes it fairly obvious. This discussion has been done dozens of times in here. There's an outstanding search button, you should try it some time.

Vitaly and Holyfield are better wins than any in Holmes's resume. Lewis sees Shavers, Norton, Weatherspoon, Cooney, Weaver and Williams and raises with Tua, McCall, Morrisson, Mavrovic, Briggs, Botha, Rahman, Rahman, Ruddock, Golota, Bruno and so on. I don't even count the Tyson win, even if Mike had more of a pulse than Ali when Holmes beat him. Lennox beat every man he faced. Bowe refused to fight him. An undefeated, proven guy like Akinwande was scared shitless in the ring with him.

It's not that complicated, really. Still, the gap isn't huge. You're entitled to have your own opinion. And to use the search function.

 

[proncley]

Reading his record is enough and it makes it fairly obvious. This discussion has been done dozens of times in here. There's an outstanding search button, you should try it some time.

Vitaly and Holyfield are better wins than any in Holmes's resume. Lewis sees Shavers, Norton, Weatherspoon, Cooney, Weaver and Williams and raises with Tua, McCall, Morrisson, Mavrovic, Briggs, Botha, Rahman, Rahman, Ruddock, Golota, Bruno and so on. I don't even count the Tyson win, even if Mike had more of a pulse than Ali when Holmes beat him. Lennox beat every man he faced. Bowe refused to fight him. An undefeated, proven guy like Akinwande was scared shitless in the ring with him.

It's not that complicated, really. Still, the gap isn't huge. You're entitled to have your own opinion. And to use the search function.

I dont see how those wins are better aside from Vitali...Holmes doesn't have someone like that on his record. That would've required him to beat Tyson or Holyfield.


Now you added that the Bowe fight didn't happen, which is hardly an accomplishment.
The Akinwande fight? He was a guy who had no clue how to fight at that level. Lennox isn't remembered for that nonsense.

I'm not going to use the search Button. If there's no demand for this, then why did you enter the thread?

 

[Hagler]

I dont see how those wins are better aside from Vitali...Holmes doesn't have someone like that on his record. That would've required him to beat Tyson or Holyfield.


Now you added that the Bowe fight didn't happen, which is hardly an accomplishment.
The Akinwande fight? He was a guy who had no clue how to fight at that level. Lennox isn't remembered for that nonsense.

I'm not going to use the search Button. If there's no demand for this, then why did you enter the thread?

To end up telling you where it is, in order to help you know this place better. You really should use it.

Akinwande and Bowe provide examples of how Lewis was feared. But yeah, his record alone is more than enough.

 

[Sunfish]

Akinwande had a title and look like he was about to shit himself. Rodrick Bowe who apparently is a top ten all time heavyweight ducked him. He avenged his losses, he did to Holyfield what people weren’t doing to Holyfield. He beat vitali when he was in his prime.

Holmes is the only person who puts Holmes over Lewis when all time lists are discussed. How people boxed against ray mercer isn’t a way to measure their ability.

 

[Sunfish]

Yes, and it's King who set him up with the inept lawyer, everyone knows these things. I never argued the defense did a good job, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I’m not arguing with you, was just putting the rape case into context in case people didn’t realise the circumstances, if you stand up in court accused of rape and admit to raping other people but not being convicted of it, you would need OJs defense team to get you acquitted.

 

[uptheirons!]

well we were discussing post Ali, Ali was number one no doubt. As for Vitali, come on how are you gonna hold that against him? He didn't owe him jack shit.He beat him fair and square, and felt the sport didn't have anything else to offer him, and he retired. You could've made that point IF he came back and had a long career fighting other guys and Vitali was his mando or something. As for beeing put to sleep, man you get hit in the right spot on your chin, I don't care who you are, you will go to sleep. This is a petty point to use as a boxing fan or a practitioner

Ali got hit in the right spot on his chin by Frazier and got right back up.

Before the Vitali fight he claimed to be aging like "fine wine" and no mention of retiring. He quit because he knew he have to rematch Vit after the bs doctor's call saved him.

 

[pakimahi]

Ali got hit in the right spot on his chin by Frazier and got right back up.

Before the Vitali fight he claimed to be aging like "fine wine" and no mention of retiring. He quit because he knew he have to rematch Vit after the bs doctor's call saved him.

You're comparing gold to silver man, but that doesn't make silver , bronze...After Ali are the key words here. As for Vitali, he turned pro in 96! and waited for all the top dogs to retire! As for feeling/old or having enough in just one fight, that does happen. It has happend to alot of folks.