Who do you rate higher on the all time list, Chuck Liddell or Dan Henderson?

[Migdagen]

They are pretty equal. Also they had similar strength, with the Iceman having slightly better takedown defense while Dan having a legendary chin.

 

[ExxA]

Gotta love the posters on both sides going " fight X and its not even close!". and yet theres tons of people not being able to agree on just one of them.

 

[frontkick1]

Henderson has 6 top ten ranked wins at Light Heavyweight.
Liddell has 8 top ten ranked wins at Light Heavyweight.

If you eliminate their shared wins at LHW, it ultimately boils down to Ortiz x2 and Couture x2 compared to Shogun x2, and I consider the former being stronger for a resume than the latter.

Therefore, Liddell > Henderson @ LHW (I don't engage in P4P discussions).

UFC/Pride Light Heavyweight Champions with least-to-most Top 10 ranked wins at Light Heavyweight.

The Flyweight version is here. The Bantamweight version is here. The Featherweight version is here. The Lightweight version is here. The Welterweight version is here. The Middleweight version is here. The Heavyweight version is here. Champions with most wins in each division here. The...

forums.sherdog.com

Let's not forget hendo's wins over the likes of Nogueira and Fedor. The guy's beaten some of the biggest, top names from WW up to HW in every single top organisation back then.
What a career !!! Him being involved in so many blockbusters and memorable fights over these years has me putting him higher on the list.

 

[frontkick1]

Yeah I had to add the UFC part after realizing people would get confused.

And yes TRT is a game changer when considering this discussion.

Chuck never got caught but i would not take the risk to confirm that he was not on something. Would you ?

 

[pankrat]

But Dan never had a dominant run in any organization as long as Chuck's regardless of how premier.
Chuck's main problem was that he fell off a cliff after the Rampage rematch, and couldn't seam to win a fight. Except that he beat Wand, who I'm sure people are going to say was shop worn in 2007. But that's the same year Dan beat Wand to get his second PRIDE belt, one of his best wins at the time.

And this is the same Wand that ruled the PRIDE 205lb division. The same one that lost to Tito and Vitor, who Chuck had fought and beat. This isn't to say that MMA math means Chuck is better than Wand. We know he was, because they fought and Chuck won when Chuck was at his worst. It's to show that Chuck was fighting guys who were contemporaneously at as high of a level as PRIDE had. The myth that the only reason why Dan couldn't put a win streak together was because he was fighting in a tougher organization is silly. Guys were jumping back and forth a bunch back then. Chuck had 2 fights in PRIDE, and Dan had a couple of fights in the UFC already as well.

Tito also had his own dominant run as UFC LHW champ. Do you cling into it to rank him over Hendo all-time too? Honest question

Chuck had a dominant run where the challengers were Horn or Sobral, or Tito several times, instead of higher ranked LHWs who were fighting elsewhere for more money.
To further prove my point about how weak the "dominant run" argument is, Chuck went to Pride ...and lost.

If we want to make MMA math lets start by looking at the common opponents. The fact that despite being significantly smaller than Liddel, Hendo did as good if not bette is pretty telling as well.

Finally, Henderson have more top ranked wins overall, by a good margin, which is usually the main criteria for these lists

At the end of the day, the only argument for Liddel is that he had a dominant run.... in a promotion that didnt hire the highest ranked LHWs at the time. Seems pretty weak of an argument.

Do you say Wand should be above Hendo all-time because he had a dominant run as Pride LHW champ? Or the argument only works for UFC posterboys...from back when UFC wasnt the premier org?

There is a reason why you wont find any published ranking that has Liddel over Hendo all-time.

 

[ForeverYoung]

Yes putting asses in seats and keeping American MMA afloat is a huge deal. You can't say the same for Pride guys as most people these days have no clue what Pride even was outside of old heads on MMA forums.

 

[HavokHarmon]

If you dont understand that a dominant run in a promotion that isnt the premier org at the time doesnt hold the value you suggest is not my issue, but you should in case you are in for a honest discussion
UFC didnt hire the best guys in Liddel's weighclass because there was another org that paid much better money to the top LHWs and this is called prize fighting for a reason.
It would be like hyping up a dominant run in Bellator in the recent era.

Your argument is that there is/were a number of uneducated fans that dont know context and just swallow whatever UFC market at them. That's basically your argument.

No, there is no discussion among pundits, educated fans and fellow fighters among who has the greater carrer between Hendo and Chuck. You literally won't find Liddel above Henderson in any all-time rank you can find. Go ahead and try.
You will only find uneducated sherbros, UFC shills, saying otherwise in these boards. That's about it. Period.
For some reason you want to advocate for them, not sure if for your own ignorance of for the sake of discussing.

I’m suggesting that it can hold value, and for some people it holds more. You obviously arent one of them.

This stuff is really apples and oranges. You’re entitled to your opinion, but your insistence that your position is the ONLY one that makes sense is pretty unpleasant. You really seem to want to just argue rather than discuss and if that’s the case the first page of this thread is filled with people who actually picked Chuck. It doesn’t make much sense to take a hard line stance against the notion that it’s a tough question.

 

[NoSmilez]

Their several common opponents, despite Hendo being signifcantly smaller than Chuck, say otherwise

It happened at different points of their career. There are also stylistic matchups.

 

[Russie]

In terms of my fandom Hendo. Considering everything it it probably is Chuck including eyes brought to this thing.

 

[xn7]

Chuck never got caught but i would not take the risk to confirm that he was not on something. Would you ?

I mean if that's how you want to look at the entire sport.

Even with that assumption I would say there's a big difference between overtly doing it vs doing it in a way to skirt the system.

The more valid viewpoint is that Henderson is known to be on testosterone for many years and fought vs those there were not on testosterone nor ever busted for any illegal substances.

 

[arcadeperfect]

For fun, how let's look at how they rank up against mutual opponents

Vs Rich Franklin - Chuck got knocked out by Rich after Rich broke his arm. Dan beat Rich in a very competitive decision at 195 (Rich's best weight). This was Chuck's last fight before retirement.

Vs Rua - Chuck was flatlined again - was past his prime. Henderson had two wars with Rua, one with Rua reasonably in his prime and another when both were past it, came out winning both. Keep in mind that Rua was basically the best or 2nd best LHW of all time and Hendo still managed to go toe to toe with him.

Vs Evans - This was the first loss when people really thought Chuck may have been past it. He got knocked F out again. Hendo would fight Evans to a split loss, and at this point Hendo had lost a step yet still was competitive.

Vs Quinton Jackson - Jackson stopped Liddell twice, under two different rule sets, so Chuck undeniably lost to Jackson in his prime. I just watched Hendo vs Jackson last week, and it was way more competitive than I remembered. I scored it r1 clearly for Hendo, R4 clearly for Rampage, and the other rounds going either way, ultimately edging it to Rampage. You could make an argument that Henderson was the best LHW in the world still, he was 1B to Rampage's 1A, while Chuck was clearly never the best even during his massive title reign because it was already proven that Rampage was better than him.

Vs Babalu - Both guys beat Babalu twice. Hendo beat Babalu in Strikefore with a similar amount of ease as Chuck did. Hendo and Babalu went to majority decision early in their career, I never saw their Rings fight so I'll give the nod to Chuck here.

Vs Belfort - Both guys beat Belfort via decision. Henderson was stopped by Belfort twice, however, both times were when Henderson was past his prime. We'll give Chuck the edge here.

Vs Bustamante - Bustamante lost to both guys, however, Hendo beat him twice and stopped him the first fight. The second fight was very competitive - but it is worth noting that that fight happened at middleweight which is Bustamante's natural weight class, thus he will be tougher there. Edge to Hendo.




Seems like to me Hendo performed better on average by a decent amount. If you removed these fights from both guys resumes Henderson's resume looks astonishing still, while Chuck's mainly come down to beating Tito and Randy's asses (he has other good wins, but nothing eye popping).

Don't forget Belfort was juiced out of his mind when he fought Hendo the 2nd time.

 

[KungFuCow]

Hendo if for no other reason than the picture perfect H Bomb on Bisping.

 

[old school 2]

Chuck in terms of popularity, Hendo in terms of resume.

It can't be said much better than that and I am a Chuck fan.

 

[the_details]

Tito also had his own dominant run as UFC LHW champ. Do you cling into it to rank him over Hendo all-time too? Honest question

Chuck had a dominant run where the challengers were Horn or Sobral, or Tito several times, instead of higher ranked LHWs who were fighting elsewhere for more money.
To further prove my point about how weak the "dominant run" argument is, Chuck went to Pride ...and lost.

If we want to make MMA math lets start by looking at the common opponents. The fact that despite being significantly smaller than Liddel, Hendo did as good if not bette is pretty telling as well.

Finally, Henderson have more top ranked wins overall, by a good margin, which is usually the main criteria for these lists

At the end of the day, the only argument for Liddel is that he had a dominant run.... in a promotion that didnt hire the highest ranked LHWs at the time. Seems pretty weak of an argument.

Do you say Wand should be above Hendo all-time because he had a dominant run as Pride LHW champ? Or the argument only works for UFC posterboys...from back when UFC wasnt the premier org?

There is a reason why you wont find any published ranking that has Liddel over Hendo all-time.

Tito Ortiz is one of my least favorite fighters. I've always disliked him and hated every win he ever got, except for his win over Bader. For some reason I really liked that one. But I dislike Tito so much I don't want to put any effort or thought into grading his career at all.

The reason why I think the dominant run argument is important is because Chuck wasn't losing to guys he shouldn't lose to. Rampage was a quality LHW, with plenty of KO power and good wrestling. Losing to him by KO doesn't taint your career in the same way that getting outstruck 3 to 1 standing by Jake Shields. And outwrestled by Jake when you are as credentialed as Hendo is with a size advantage. Jake Shields landed nearly as many strikes as Hendo did against Shogun at UFC193. Jake shields landed nearly as many strikes as Rampage did when he beat Hendo at UFC75. Jake Shields landed 73x more significant strikes on Hendo than Jake Shields did in his fight with the Goat Nick Thompson at EliteXC Unfinished Business. If we are looking at a career, loses like that have to count. Hendo has bigger wins but bigger loses. And never a streak of wins as long as Chuck's. And never a title defense. And while he arguably fought in a more prestigious organization, 3 of his his signature win in PRIDE were Vitor, Wand and Bustamate... all guys Chuck beat. And 2 of those guys have wins over Dan.

 

[Aurelian]

Dan TKO'd Fedor in one round. The end.

 

[josh345]

for sure hendo. He has a win over fucking fedor. shogun. wanderlei. chuck has those title defenses but the resume just isn't even close.

 

[MillingMeSoftly]

Chuck Liddell had 7 KO's in a row

His run was ridiculous. Defended the strap several times.

I think Chuck in his prime beats Henderson with ease

Henderson and his prime was called decision Dan and he would not have done that to Chuck.

Henderson has some great wins on his resume... but so does Chuck. Chuck beat Kevin Randleman, and Randi couture twice which I think counts for a lot

I think getting a win over Randy not once but twice is hhhuuuuuuuuge.. Chuck beat Wanderlei Chuck beat Vitor. Chuck beat Alistair Overeem.

Chuck beat a lot of guys and he wasn't doing it by decision

 

[HHJ]

Chuck Liddell had 7 KO's in a row

His run was ridiculous. Defended the strap several times.

I think Chuck in his prime beats Henderson with ease

Henderson and his prime was called decision Dan and he would not have done that to Chuck.

Henderson has some great wins on his resume... but so does Chuck. Chuck beat Kevin Randleman, and Randi couture twice which I think counts for a lot

I think getting a win over Randy not once but twice is hhhuuuuuuuuge.. Chuck beat Wanderlei Chuck beat Vitor. Chuck beat Alistair Overeem.

Chuck beat a lot of guys and he wasn't doing it by decision

Dan has more kos than Chuck

More divisions than chuck

Longer career than chuck

Better comp than chuck

 

[Jonesisinnocent]

When I first got into MMA Chuck and Dan instantly became two of my favorites. Back in the early 2000s almost all fighters prided themselves on being anytime-anywhere fighters, but Chuck and Dan were only a handful of guys who actually meant it. Of all the fights that never happened between the early legends this is the one that saddens me the most because Chuck vs Dan would have been a guaranteed barnburner.

Anyhow, my question is who do you guys rate higher on the all time list between Chuck and Dan?
View attachment 1022688

Henderson for sure

 

[bartleby929]

Liddell by a mile. UFC ain't UFC without Liddell