Who do you rate higher on the all time list, Chuck Liddell or Dan Henderson?

[Woody869]

Chuck beats Hendo in prime.
Hendo beats Chuck in career.

 

[the_details]

PRIDE was infinitely superior to UFC at 205 those days.

Wanderlei, the only PRIDE 205 champion other than Hendo, was 1-2 in UFC fights at the time he became PRIDE champion. Tito beat him to get the UFC belt. Vitor beat him, and became UFC champion. Chuck has wins over Tito and Vitor. So does the other contemporaneous UFC 205 champion, Randy Couture, who Chuck also beat. The guy Wand beat in those first 3 UFC fights, Tony Petarra, ended his career at 2-3-1. The Wand fight was his only UFC fight, and Petarra's 2 wins came against guys with a combined record of 1-16. Wand's next UFC win was against Keith Jardine, which I've learned from this thread is a worse fighter to lose to than a LHW getting beat by a WW.

Wand defended the belt 4 times. 2 of those fighters, Tamura and Kanehara already had losses to Babalu, a fighter Chuck chuck had beat in under 3 minutes and would go on to beat again in 1:35. To think that the divisions weren't competitive at the very least ignores the fact that when fighters jumped from one organization to the other or have common opponents, they trades wins and loses quite frequently.

PRIDE had a more action focused rule set and was better from the viewer's perspective. There isn't actual evidence that the talent in PRIDE's 205 division was quantifiably better. Better to watch, yes. Higher in talent, debatable.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Wanderlei, the only PRIDE 205 champion other than Hendo, was 1-2 in UFC fights at the time he became PRIDE champion. Tito beat him to get the UFC belt. Vitor beat him, and became UFC champion. Chuck has wins over Tito and Vitor. So does the other contemporaneous UFC 205 champion, Randy Couture, who Chuck also beat. The guy Wand beat in those first 3 UFC fights, Tony Petarra, ended his career at 2-3-1. The Wand fight was his only UFC fight, and Petarra's 2 wins came against guys with a combined record of 1-16. Wand's next UFC win was against Keith Jardine, which I've learned from this thread is a worse fighter to lose to than a LHW getting beat by a WW.

Wand defended the belt 4 times. 2 of those fighters, Tamura and Kanehara already had losses to Babalu, a fighter Chuck chuck had beat in under 3 minutes and would go on to beat again in 1:35. To think that the divisions weren't competitive at the very least ignores the fact that when fighters jumped from one organization to the other or have common opponents, they trades wins and loses quite frequently.

PRIDE had a more action focused rule set and was better from the viewer's perspective. There isn't actual evidence that the talent in PRIDE's 205 division was quantifiably better. Better to watch, yes. Higher in talent, debatable.

I mean...Pride had other 205ers other than Wanderlei Silva. Just because he was the champion doesn't mean that everyone under him has irrelevant feats. You do know that Wanderlei Silva actually lost in Pride while he was champion, right?


Your last paragraph doesn't support the rest of your post at all. Pride wasn't about titles, so I am assuming you're trying to use some logic of Silva = entire 205 division which is erroneous. Silva was not the best 205er in Pride.

All you really did was just say Wanderlei was overrated.


Shogun, Rampage, Arona, Nogueira, Silva, Overeem, Henderson, Sakuraba are better than Liddell, Ortiz, Courture, Babalu, Matyushenko.....uh... 90 year old Ken Shamrock? Pre-prime Griffin?


Vitor Belfort was in both Pride and UFC...and he didnt' fair that well in Pride, so it's odd you use him as a crutch for UFC > Pride. He didn't beat anyone who was a notable 205er, and lost to like 4 of them (excluding getting finished by Overeem in California).

 

[the_details]

Vitor Belfort was in both Pride and UFC...and he didnt' fair that well in Pride, so it's odd you use him as a crutch for UFC > Pride. He didn't beat anyone who was a notable 205er, and lost to like 4 of them (excluding getting finished by Overeem in California).

Vitor was 4-1 in PRIDE when he fought Chuck at UFC 37.5. After he returned to PRIDE he ended up with a final record of 5-3. His 3 losses were to Reem, Hendo and Sakuraba. Not exactly what I would call not doing great, but OK, we have different criteria for greatness as we've already established. But Vitor's record proves the point, though. There are guys that bounced back and forth, have shared opponents, or fought guys that were in the other organizations. There isn't data to support the notion that PRIDE had the better 205lb division based on fighter talent. The fights were undeniably more exciting. I 100% agree with that. But that comes down to regulation (drug testing included) and rule set (knees, kicks and stomps on the ground, yellow cards for stalling, pile drivers, the round structure), and scoring. The ring as well. You didn't have guys holding people against the ropes like you did the cage wall in the UFC as often.

Shooting for a takedown in the UFC and getting stuck under a sprawled fighter basically means you can get punched in the body and you have to protect you neck from chokes. In PRIDE, you could get kneed, or picked up and slammed on you head. It's undeniably more exciting to see the slam/pile driver than to see a fighter land a couple of punches to the ribs. But that doesn't mean the fighters are more talented. It only means the rule set allows and encourages them to have a more exciting fight.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I said Vitor did not beat any notable 205ers, not that he did not have a winning record. There is a reason why you mentioned the names of the guys who beat him (great 205ers) and none of the ones that he beat (because they were either cans or heavyweights).

Not to take away anything from Vitor beating Yvel and Herring, but they are not reflective of the fighters we are talking about (unless you're trying to say that Pride's HWs aren't as good either). They're simply not relevant.

When Vitor fought legit 205ers he did not do well. Vitor was 0-4 against established 205ers from Pride. (he lost to Overeem twice)


Yes, Pride did have a rule set that allowed for more aggressive and overall more entertaining fights. That isn't binary with them having better fighters though. Vitor Belfort did not dominate the 205 division in Pride, he pretty much lost every relevant fight nor would I consider Belfort a "UFC guy". He fought enough times in Pride and non-UFC in general that I don't think it makes sense to say that because he beat Silva that the UFC was better than Pride.

Again, your premise is more along the lines of Wanderlei Silva was overrated, which he probably was - he was PRIDE's Chuck Liddell. But based on how you mentioned "Silva was the only champion along with Hendo", you are essentially saying that because Silva had 'supremacy' over PRIDE and he lost to Tito/Rampage that UFC > Pride, which has a lot of holes in it.

Silva was not unbeatable or the best in PRIDE, and Chuck didn't dominate in PRIDE either, even in his wins. (Guy Metzger had the equivalent of a 10-8'd in a 10 minute round).

 

[JSF]

Watching that video, it starts with a fallacy. "Supposed to get knocked out by Robbie Lawler (near even, Shields was a +115 dog), 'sposed to get beat by Mayhem Miller (Shields was a favorite -303), supposed to get destroyed by Dan Henderson (true)." There's your revisionist history right there.

Toi be clear, I'm not saying Shields wasn't good. He's one of my all time favorite fighters. I think at WW he was one of the best to ever do it. It's that he is undersized for 185, and he spent most of his career in the B leagues. So when it comes to a fight between Jake Shields and Dan Henderson, The Dan Henderson, who's made his career fighting in the most prestigious of all MW/LHW divisions in the history of all time (something I learned from this thread), The Dan Henderson who is a 2 time Olympian in wrestling, The Dan Henderson who is coming off a fight where he hit Bisping so hard it starched his suit coat in the locker room.... I mean, come on. The bush league WW who moved up and fought a couple of MW fights is going to take on the guy who KO'd Wand in PRIDE just a few years earlier? The guy who's the first person to KO Bisping, and not just KO him, make him look dead?

People might think I'm ragging on Shields. I'm not. I'll say it again, he's one of my all time favorite fighters. The reason I could immediately point out that Shields outstruck Hendo in that fight is because I've watched it dozens of times. People remember Shields getting melted in the first round as if he was nearly finished, but he wasn't. The first time he goes down Dan gets on top and Shields almost leg locks him. I think the way Shields strikes is a big part of why people think he was so dazed, as well. He always looks like a fish out of water striking.

Dude, this is exactly what I was pointing out, and it looks like you agree after all

Shields was underrated, before getting beat by GSP - and this includes the Hendo fight - and still is too this day

Getting beat by Shields, shouldn’t diminish anybody’s legacy, particular in that time period I specifically keep referencing over and over - that massive win streak over years, multiple orgs, multiple weight classes, up until he was finally beat by GSP to end that run

I’m not commentating on shields before that run, or after. But to get beat by shields during that run, should not be a knock since he did it to so. many. top. fighters.

That he was such an underdog every time, and yet still won every time (doesn’t matter how close, or if you disagree with decisions, etc… fact is still he won)

makes my point so much stronger, do you not realize that?

That’s it!

(I did add that Fitch had a parallel run too - a period where he kept on winning, until beat by GSP)

Hey… I think prime GSP beats Hendo too, despite size difference. Should that diminish Hendo too? Heck no.

 

[the_details]

Again, your premise is more along the lines of Wanderlei Silva was overrated, which he probably was - he was PRIDE's Chuck Liddell. But based on how you mentioned "Silva was the only champion along with Hendo", you are essentially saying that because Silva had 'supremacy' over PRIDE and he lost to Tito/Rampage that UFC > Pride, which has a lot of holes in it.

I never said UFC was better than PRIDE. I simply said that there isn't any evidence that the talent pool of PRIDE's 205lb division was quantifiably better than UFC's at the time, and cited examples from the champions of that division. One of those champions is the direct topic of this thread. The other was a longstanding champ and the guy Hendo beat to get the belt. You are projecting and putting words into my mouth that I haven't stated. Others were claiming one organization had the better division. I simply countered that claim with evidence that shows their claims aren't indisputable.

 

[pankrat]

I never said UFC was better than PRIDE. I simply said that there isn't any evidence that the talent pool of PRIDE's 205lb division was quantifiably better than UFC's at the time, and cited examples from the champions of that division. One of those champions is the direct topic of this thread. The other was a longstanding champ and the guy Hendo beat to get the belt. You are projecting and putting words into my mouth that I haven't stated. Others were claiming one organization had the better division. I simply countered that claim with evidence that shows their claims aren't indisputable.

There is more than enough evidence of Pride>UFC back in early-mid '00s

I didnt write those arguments off. When you brought popularity or pioneering reasons from an American centric view to pick Chuck I replied - Fair enough

They are debatable, and guys as Yuki Kondo or Guy Mezger were already notable for the fighting tactics you are describing, but anyways if the aforementined is the criteria you want to take, it's what it is and there is not much I wil debate about it.


There is evidence enough:

- Sherdog rankings - and other media outlets - attest for a significantly larger portion of top fighters being in Pride than in UFC during the early-mid '00s. And particularly at LHW.

- Plenty of fighters from that era commented on Pride paying better than UFC at the time. From Murilo Bustamante vacating the UFC belt to go Pride for that exact reason (which never happened the other way around), to Pele signing for Pride instead of UFC after KOing Hughes, to the disclosure payrolls from Pride/UFC we have available.
Pride payroll in 2006:
https://www.mmaweekly.com/news/pride-usa-fighter-salaries-2

UFC payroll in 2006:

UFC Fight Night 7 Salaries: Pay-days for Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Josh Koscheck, Karo Parisyan and

Fighters’ salaries from UFC Fight Night 7, which took place Dec. 13, 2006, at the Marines Corps Air Station Miramar in San Diego, Calif., are listed below. MMAjunkie.com is proud to be the fi…

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

it's not even a slight margin. And in the early '00s where UFC was near bankrupcy was even worse


I mean, if we are going to deny any evidence and just stick to who was the UFC posterboy, who brought more eyes to UFC, who was more relevant for UFC viewers, and who pioneered certain fighting tactics in the eyes of UFC viewers....there is not much to debate. Yeah, you can definitely pick Liddel behind such stance

Stop being a flat-earther.

 

[Onidemon84]

Not exactly. Hendo was 1-1 vs. Belfort and 1-1 vs. Wand while Chuck was 1-0 vs. both. Chuck was 0-2 vs. Rampage while Hendo was 0-1 against him, albeit putting up a better fight and not getting finished. But as I said earlier, styles make fights, and I'm not sure if Hendo could've gone on Chuck's 7-0 run at LHW where he beat both Randy and Tito twice. Hendo had problems with other guys who could wrestle. My prediction is he'd go 1-1 vs. both Tito and Randy, winning once by H-bomb and losing the other fight by getting outwrestled by somewhat bigger fighters.

I actually thought about this after posting what I did but by that time I was too late . I deserve to look like a dumbass.