Who are the Dagestanis in the UFC right now?

RichardHarrow said:
Do you ever think that MMA will find a way to neutralize the Dage grappling ?
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I don‘t think that Caucasian grappling is unbeatable per se but in order to beat it standing you need a blend of freestyle and judo/sambo. College flakestyle is not beating Dagestani grappling on the feet, not ever. On the floor, they have a super straight forward grinding style which they perfected and focuses on top position and simple subs, while Murrkans rely heavily on BeeJayJay. Dagestanis can also be very good kickers, much better than Murrkans. Where Murrkans will always have a edge though is punching, which will always be a huge equaliser in fighting.

So, hard to tell, but given how hard Caucasians train and the fact that their religion gives them an edge, i don‘t see the top americans beating the top Caucasians many times out of ten given equal chances.
 
Doctor Grudge said:
The UFC does not run enough shows in the Middle East to support more guys from Dagestan. That is the only real commercial value of them. A place like PFL added a bunch of them and it doesn't do anything for them.

We should not confuse Caucasions with Dagestani people. The UFC would gladly accept more people like Topuria.

America isn't lacking in talent.
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I have always said that Georgia is a natural hotbed for MMA talent.
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
I don‘t think that Caucasian grappling is unbeatable per se but in order to beat it standing you need a blend of freestyle and judo/sambo. College flakestyle is not beating Dagestani grappling on the feet, not ever. On the floor, they have a super straight forward grinding style which they perfected and focuses on top position and simple subs, while Murrkans rely heavily on BeeJayJay. Dagestanis can also be very good kickers, much better than Murrkans. Where Murrkans will always have a edge though is punching, which will always be a huge equaliser in fighting.

So, hard to tell, but given how hard Caucasians train and the fact that their religion gives them an edge, i don‘t see the top americans beating the top Caucasians many times out of ten given equal chances.
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Shamil has proven pretty effective at neutralizing the grappling. But yea Americans aren’t likely to take up Wushu / Sanda and learn how to neutralize the grappling.

Suffice you put it . MMA is evolving and unless the Nate Diaz’ of the world clean their act it will move on.
 
RichardHarrow said:
Do you ever think that MMA will find a way to neutralize the Dage grappling ?
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Is that a genuine question? Not to be a dick but it's kinda a stupid one, especially right now. Poirier who's notorious for bad takedown defense did shockingly well vs Islam. Sandhagen who's notorious for bad takedown defense did shockingly well vs Umar. Shabliy had a competitive fight vs Usman, I think someone like Vartanyan would beat Usman right now very possibly. Arman who's about to fight Islam, largely nullified his grappling for the first 10 minutes before fatiguing on 2-3 weeks notice in his debut at 23. Ioan Harris of Wales went to a split with Magomed-Giri Umarkhadziev in an undefeated prozpect vs prospect fight. Guys like Samandar Murodov and Daniyar Toychubek have busted up good Dagestanis...the central Asians can do it for sure. Even Tibau vs Khabib showed us and Khabib didn't really face many other good grapplers his entire career.

I think the Dagestani grappling is much more comprehensive than what we saw from wrestle boxers...They're great with upper body wrestling and strong with lower body, use the cage well, are far more experienced grapplers when it comes to top control, submission offense and defense and since most also did Sambo, Hand to Hand combat etc they are more fluid and versed standing too. Plus most of these guys like Khabib, Umar, Islam, Usman, Zabit, Khasan, Shamil etc etc. Began competing in martial arts and Freestyle forms of fighting and even MMA as children and young teens at a very high level. This isn't the norm in other parts of the world, but you are seeing guys in Japan likes Rei Tsuruya, Tatsuro Taira, Kyouma Akimoto etc. Or American guys like Austin Bashi, Brazil has some guys I mean...Aldo, Oliveira and Pantoja all had their pro debuts at 17, Dricus had his amateur MMA debut at 18, pro at 19 and got his start in Judo as a young kid, did. Little wrestling and then had about 30 kickboxing bouts 18-19. It just takes guys being on the same level as Dagestanis to get there, but also...of course you can't be weak or unprepared in the wrestling, physicality and cardio department which a lot of guys are.
 
HuskySamoan said:
Is that a genuine question? Not to be a dick but it's kinda a stupid one, especially right now. Poirier who's notorious for bad takedown defense did shockingly well vs Islam. Sandhagen who's notorious for bad takedown defense did shockingly well vs Umar. Shabliy had a competitive fight vs Usman, I think someone like Vartanyan would beat Usman right now very possibly. Arman who's about to fight Islam, largely nullified his grappling for the first 10 minutes before fatiguing on 2-3 weeks notice in his debut at 23. Ioan Harris of Wales went to a split with Magomed-Giri Umarkhadziev in an undefeated prozpect vs prospect fight. Guys like Samandar Murodov and Daniyar Toychubek have busted up good Dagestanis...the central Asians can do it for sure. Even Tibau vs Khabib showed us and Khabib didn't really face many other good grapplers his entire career.

I think the Dagestani grappling is much more comprehensive than what we saw from wrestle boxers...They're great with upper body wrestling and strong with lower body, use the cage well, are far more experienced grapplers when it comes to top control, submission offense and defense and since most also did Sambo, Hand to Hand combat etc they are more fluid and versed standing too. Plus most of these guys like Khabib, Umar, Islam, Usman, Zabit, Khasan, Shamil etc etc. Began competing in martial arts and Freestyle forms of fighting and even MMA as children and young teens at a very high level. This isn't the norm in other parts of the world, but you are seeing guys in Japan likes Rei Tsuruya, Tatsuro Taira, Kyouma Akimoto etc. Or American guys like Austin Bashi, Brazil has some guys I mean...Aldo, Oliveira and Pantoja all had their pro debuts at 17, Dricus had his amateur MMA debut at 18, pro at 19 and got his start in Judo as a young kid, did. Little wrestling and then had about 30 kickboxing bouts 18-19. It just takes guys being on the same level as Dagestanis to get there, but also...of course you can't be weak or unprepared in the wrestling, physicality and cardio department which a lot of guys are.
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Lol you can make observations without being a dick. Thanks for your input.
 
RichardHarrow said:
Lol you can make observations without being a dick. Thanks for your input.
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I think lately guys have been really mounting a noticeable resurgence vs the Dagestani grappling. That's all. Shamil is the Dagestani cannibal, he keeps shutting down his brethrens wrestling and knocking them out. Poirier did shockingly well vs Islam albeit coming up short, Sandhagen similarly vs Umar.

I think the problem is, well one of the major problems for Western fighters like Latin Americans, Brits, US, Brazilians and Oceania is they tend to come up in regional scenes and training out of gyms where there isn't a lot of exposure to these very takedown dominant styles and skillbases and even when they make it to the UFC or PFL they often get the Sean O'Malley or Pereira type routes where they can literally make it to a title shot without having to face a strong wrestler...I believe this is artificially engineered because if you signed off merit alone you'd have tons of takedown dominant guys in the best promotions in the world but they don't want that. So if there's a lack of need for guys to be good at shutting down takedowns and having great defensive grappling...then the way coaching staff, training, regional scenes, promotions etc form is based off of that. Back in the GSP days and before wrestlers were everywhere, now they're hardly anywhere and the few you have tend to be Caucasian guys. It's just an issue that hasn't needed correcting very often but then you have a guy like Khamzat or Islam get to a title picture and the champs and contenders aren't prepared because they never needed to be and ways too late for fucking 30 year olds to play catch up most of the time.

Anyways, I think the way you solve the Dagestani dominance is by signing more of them...then fighters will be forced to adjust earlier and more often across all weight classes. I'm not even kidding, right now there's like 25 male Russians and probably like 10-15 male central Asians in the entire UFC out of 700+ fighters and some of them are literally chumps like Slava Claus and Denis Tiuliulin that don't actually apply. They're here to make the sport better, they're well rounded but often have a very dominant base skill, they tend to be fairly athletic particularly when it comes to strength and physicality, they have really strong pedigree due to starting very young and dedicating their lives to combat sports, they also take their strong skillbase and put it to the test vs other guys who have the same strong skillbase...Khabib didn't learn to grapple by taking down Carlos Condit lmao, he was taking down combat sambo world champs, he was wrestling with future Olympians, with competitive Judo black belts etc. Brazil, Latin America, UK and Oceania also just have a serious lack of domestic talent to prepare them for this in terms of teammates, exposure, coaches etc. But one truth is, it is exponentially easier to learn defensive wrestling and defensive grappling than it is to learn offensive aspects.
 
HuskySamoan said:
I think lately guys have been really mounting a noticeable resurgence vs the Dagestani grappling. That's all. Shamil is the Dagestani cannibal, he keeps shutting down his brethrens wrestling and knocking them out. Poirier did shockingly well vs Islam albeit coming up short, Sandhagen similarly vs Umar.

I think the problem is, well one of the major problems for Western fighters like Latin Americans, Brits, US, Brazilians and Oceania is they tend to come up in regional scenes and training out of gyms where there isn't a lot of exposure to these very takedown dominant styles and skillbases and even when they make it to the UFC or PFL they often get the Sean O'Malley or Pereira type routes where they can literally make it to a title shot without having to face a strong wrestler...I believe this is artificially engineered because if you signed off merit alone you'd have tons of takedown dominant guys in the best promotions in the world but they don't want that. So if there's a lack of need for guys to be good at shutting down takedowns and having great defensive grappling...then the way coaching staff, training, regional scenes, promotions etc form is based off of that. Back in the GSP days and before wrestlers were everywhere, now they're hardly anywhere and the few you have tend to be Caucasian guys. It's just an issue that hasn't needed correcting very often but then you have a guy like Khamzat or Islam get to a title picture and the champs and contenders aren't prepared because they never needed to be and ways too late for fucking 30 year olds to play catch up most of the time.

Anyways, I think the way you solve the Dagestani dominance is by signing more of them...then fighters will be forced to adjust earlier and more often across all weight classes. I'm not even kidding, right now there's like 25 male Russians and probably like 10-15 male central Asians in the entire UFC out of 700+ fighters and some of them are literally chumps like Slava Claus and Denis Tiuliulin that don't actually apply. They're here to make the sport better, they're well rounded but often have a very dominant base skill, they tend to be fairly athletic particularly when it comes to strength and physicality, they have really strong pedigree due to starting very young and dedicating their lives to combat sports, they also take their strong skillbase and put it to the test vs other guys who have the same strong skillbase...Khabib didn't learn to grapple by taking down Carlos Condit lmao, he was taking down combat sambo world champs, he was wrestling with future Olympians, with competitive Judo black belts etc. Brazil, Latin America, UK and Oceania also just have a serious lack of domestic talent to prepare them for this in terms of teammates, exposure, coaches etc. But one truth is, it is exponentially easier to learn defensive wrestling and defensive grappling than it is to learn offensive aspects.
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Your reputation precedes. Thanks for the detail.

However I dont think were on the same page as to Poirier/Sandhagens efforts. To me it looked like they were just surviving. We place the Caucassus on such a pedestal that anything less than a stellar performance and we are of the impression that the opponent is doing well. I might need to watch those fights again but it just looked like resistance for the most part to me.
 
RichardHarrow said:
Your reputation precedes. Thanks for the detail.

However I dont think were on the same page as to Poirier/Sandhagens efforts. To me it looked like they were just surviving. We place the Caucassus on such a pedestal that anything less than a stellar performance and we are of the impression that the opponent is doing well. I might need to watch those fights again but it just looked like resistance for the most part to me.
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I mean....Poirier just surviving? He landed at a 40% rate standing vs Islam and bloodied him up. Had like a 70% takedown defense ratio, did surprisingly well getting up from bottom and was competitive on the feet like every round. He was clearly losing and did get finished but it was a competitive fight and Poirier did shockingly well in the grappling department for a guy that was getting taken down by Dan Hooker and who got tossed at 145 back in the day by guys like Cub Swanson and the Korean Zombie.

Umar vs Sandhagen...I mean, Sandhagen landed 80/172 strikes, about 40% striking accuracy on the feet you gotta remember Islam and Umar tend to have like insane striking defense so these guys largely cracked it. And Cory defended most takedowns while consistently getting up from bottom when he was taken down...Cory a guy not known for his defensive wrestling, strength or athleticism. Cory also won a round and the first couple rounds were close, after that the last 3 were won by Umar but he never hurt Cory and they were fairly competitive.

The big take away for me was that it wasn't Petr Yan who has historically great takedown defense showing up impressively vs Umar, it was fucking Sandhagen. Same for Islam, it wasn't Tsarukyan or some stud grappler it was fucking old man past prime Poirier. At 155 beyond Arman there just isn't any rising talent unfortunately...at 135lbs Umars got his work cut out for him. But a guy like Rinya Nakamura who Umar would beat very likely, Umar wouldn't be able to wrestle. Just like we say with Saidyokub who was smaller and a lot less experienced, he with a strong Judo, wrestling pedigree and Sambo experience was able to stay mostly on par with Umar grappling wise and did drop Umar standing. It takes a lot to catch up to these guys but none are unbeatable.
 
HuskySamoan said:
I mean....Poirier just surviving? He landed at a 40% rate standing vs Islam and bloodied him up. Had like a 70% takedown defense ratio, did surprisingly well getting up from bottom and was competitive on the feet like every round. He was clearly losing and did get finished but it was a competitive fight and Poirier did shockingly well in the grappling department for a guy that was getting taken down by Dan Hooker and who got tossed at 145 back in the day by guys like Cub Swanson and the Korean Zombie.

Umar vs Sandhagen...I mean, Sandhagen landed 80/172 strikes, about 40% striking accuracy on the feet you gotta remember Islam and Umar tend to have like insane striking defense so these guys largely cracked it. And Cory defended most takedowns while consistently getting up from bottom when he was taken down...Cory a guy not known for his defensive wrestling, strength or athleticism. Cory also won a round and the first couple rounds were close, after that the last 3 were won by Umar but he never hurt Cory and they were fairly competitive.

The big take away for me was that it wasn't Petr Yan who has historically great takedown defense showing up impressively vs Umar, it was fucking Sandhagen. Same for Islam, it wasn't Tsarukyan or some stud grappler it was fucking old man past prime Poirier. At 155 beyond Arman there just isn't any rising talent unfortunately...at 135lbs Umars got his work cut out for him. But a guy like Rinya Nakamura who Umar would beat very likely, Umar wouldn't be able to wrestle. Just like we say with Saidyokub who was smaller and a lot less experienced, he with a strong Judo, wrestling pedigree and Sambo experience was able to stay mostly on par with Umar grappling wise and did drop Umar standing. It takes a lot to catch up to these guys but none are unbeatable.
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Yep these are fair points. Definitely something for me to factor going forward and makes it more exciting.
 
agibmxmma said:
Being Muslim is as "American as apple pie"?
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Being American is pretty American.

And religious diversity has always been a big part of the United States. I think you can be pretty dang American while being a Muslim. You think Muhammad Ali isn't American AF?
 
Is this still up to date? I feel like we've had some new Dagestanis recently, but I can't think of any names.
 
Lord Pyjamas said:
But I was also fucking on fire Jul 31, 2024 ha ha!
But we all like our own posts more then we should.
Not total fail is a win in my eyes!
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hahaha not what I was expecting, I thought you posted a bunch of Dagestanis that no one else remembered.
 
Have we ever seen two of them at one time? I think they are all Makachev in varying forms of fat suits. Minus that abe Lincoln guy who left the glory of his 8k/8k contract.
 
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