Which Karate style is better for mma?

[ReasonableMMAFan]

The hard hitting Shotokan style like Machida or the more movement based side stance style of Thompson/Scoggins.

 

[fluffball]

I disagree with your premise.

 

[ReasonableMMAFan]

I disagree with your premise.

I think I know what you mean. And yeah I sort of agree with you now that I've taken the time to think about it.

 

[StopDucking]

First of all, there's no "hard hitting shotokan style". Shotokan doesn't allow physical contact which makes it unrealistic since there's no real sparring and no fights. Kenpo karate looks like taekwondo and is basically a waste of time. The only karate style applicable to MMA is kyokushin, which is kickboxing without head punches.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

First of all, there's no "hard hitting shotokan style". Shotokan doesn't allow physical contact which makes it unrealistic since there's no real sparring and no fights. Kenpo karate looks like taekwondo and is basically a waste of time. The only karate style applicable to MMA is kyokushin, which is kickboxing without head punches.

That's not really an accurate thing to say. There are Kyokushin offshoots, which are better suited for MMA, and things like Kudo and tons of variations on that.

I think the best way to describe it would be that Kyokushin is as traditional as you can get if you want karate that's useful for MMA. Or at least if you want a decent usefulness:time spent training ratio.

 

[Hotora86]

First of all, there's no "hard hitting shotokan style". Shotokan doesn't allow physical contact which makes it unrealistic since there's no real sparring and no fights. Kenpo karate looks like taekwondo and is basically a waste of time. The only karate style applicable to MMA is kyokushin, which is kickboxing without head punches.

What are you talking about? Shotokan allows contact.
This from 6 years ago, I know, and yes, some orgs have moved to light-contact BUT JKA in Japan does it proper, hard:



As for the TS question, the best Karate style for MMA is Kudo since it is full-contact, allows head punches and grappling.

 

[Azam]

If you want an honest answer - I think JKA shotokan is probably the best fit for MMA.

Ideally the best karate style would be a mix of JKA shotokan (or other) & kyokushin or an offshoot like Kudo, Enshin, Ashihara etc.


Personally from my experience in Kudo - I wouldn't recommend Kyokushin for anything MMA-esque. The only reasons is because sparring is with no head punches and from personal experience when I was doing Kyokushin & Kudo - the Kyokushin sparring was causing havoc in Kudo sparring - to the point I decided to drop it.

For me with Kyokushin the habit of lowering your hands to protect your body or parry body shots (which is what I tend to do) meant my hands kept dropping instinctively to protect or parry body shots leaving my face wide open (not so bad when you need to protect your head from kicks in Kyokushin because kicks are slower but awful for protecting punches to the face), the distancing issues were also huge (kyokushin is generally close range) it took me a while to readjust my range so everything was off in Kudo when I started (only was able to do it properly after stopping Kyokushin), the defensive issues it gave were also big - just basic boxing defense (parrying, slipping, bobbing - keep head off centre) were non-existent. There were pros though - I can take a punch a lot better than others in the dojo (unless I'm gassed otherwise even a tiny punch can wind me lol) & my kicks generally have more umph to them even when my flexibility sucks ass at the moment from constant knee injuries.


Kudo is great style to learn but even it has it's cons although I'd pick a Kudo fighter to beat any other Karate stylist in a fight tbh (in general) - while they aren't technically as sound as Karateka or grapplers (a lot of that is due to people in Kudo from all backgrounds so you learn a mesh of things under the banner of MMA Karate) you do have kudo guys that are focus more on one than the other & guys that are all rounders. The guys that focus on one more than the other tend to be just as technically proficient as your standard karateka or grappler. Generally because you split training time between the two - you won't be as perfect as someone that trains one solely or the other.

 

[Tayski]

What are you talking about? Shotokan allows contact.
This from 6 years ago, I know, and yes, some orgs have moved to light-contact BUT JKA in Japan does it proper, hard:

Most Shotokan dojos, organisations and competitions in the world don't allow contact.
Only some organisations in Japan still allow contact, and even then it's only one hit at a time and no combinations.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Most Shotokan dojos, organisations and competitions in the world don't allow contact.
Only some organisations in Japan still allow contact, and even then it's only one hit at a time and no combinations.

Yes, I actually learned on Sherdog that some shotokan exists that allows contact.

All I have seen IRL is kata-shotokan (useless) or tip tap point fighting.

And I agree that in the best of cases, it's a one hit at a time thing.

Still a useful tool to have in your toolbox IMO, but only if you have solid basics in "combo" arts like MT or boxing.

It is very rare to be able to finish a fight with just one punch, especially when your opponent has you against the ropes, the cage or say, a wall or a bunch of tables or a fence.

Nobody will admit it here (the stand-up forum has turned into a TMA glorification forum over the years), but keeping opponents at bay with karate movements à la Wonderboy or Machida is something that a very small minority of fighters can achieve.

Best to learn good ol' boring styles like MT or boxing that prepare you to be peppered by combos to the face & body while you can't evade.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

tip tap point fighting.

 

[Tayski]

Yes, I actually learned on Sherdog that some shotokan exists that allows contact.

All I have seen IRL is kata-shotokan (useless) or tip tap point fighting.

And I agree that in the best of cases, it's a one hit at a time thing.

Still a useful tool to have in your toolbox IMO, but only if you have solid basics in "combo" arts like MT or boxing.

It is very rare to be able to finish a fight with just one punch, especially when your opponent has you against the ropes, the cage or say, a wall or a bunch of tables or a fence.

Nobody will admit it here (the stand-up forum has turned into a TMA glorification forum over the years), but keeping opponents at bay with karate movements à la Wonderboy or Machida is something that a very small minority of fighters can achieve.

Best to learn good ol' boring styles like MT or boxing that prepare you to be peppered by combos to the face & body while you can't evade.

The problem I have with it is not so much the 'one strike one kill' mentality but more the fact that those who train in those styles don't know how to put power behind a strike and even worse, are not used to getting hit full force.
I know for a fact as I come from a few years of Shotokan when I was younger.
Even though the footwork of moving in and out and hitting without getting hit is a great skill to have, when I first moved to full contact my 2 biggest issues were that my strikes were controlled and didn't have much power behind them, as you train to control them and not hurt your opponents, but also getting hit full force when you're not used to it is a game changer. Even when I was the first to hit my opponent thanks to speed and footwork, my opponent would just take it like it's nothing (conditioning) and march me down with heavy strikes.

So IMO even a full contact style like Kyokushin which doesn't have head punches in its competitions better prepares you for MMA than a non-contact style which has head punches.

 

[Hotora86]

BTW if you ever wondered how many MMA fighters actually have Karate black belts or which Karate style is most prevalent in MMA (based on blackbelts transitioning to MMA at least) - have a look here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/

 

[spacetime]

BUT JKA in Japan does it proper, hard:

Nah, most of those guys in the clip were disqualified or penalised......

 

[spacetime]

The problem I have with it is not so much the 'one strike one kill' mentality but more the fact that those who train in those styles don't know how to put power behind a strike and even worse, are not used to getting hit full force.
I

Whether you hit hard or not is entirely up to the individual. There are pro boxers who are completely useless....Fat, slow, and very little power.

 

[Sano]

What are you talking about? Shotokan allows contact.
This from 6 years ago, I know, and yes, some orgs have moved to light-contact BUT JKA in Japan does it proper, hard:

Never seen this before. Those guys are legit. All about ending the fight with one punch or kick, it's pretty cool.

 

[Tayski]

Whether you hit hard or not is entirely up to the individual. There are pro boxers who are completely useless....Fat, slow, and very little power.

Yeah you would obviously kill those Pro boxers with your sick Tae Kwon Do skills.
Have you ever posted something that makes sense?

 

[shaffmeister]

Whatever stephen Thompson does. Either that or the guys who break bricks on tv and do backflips, they're pretty hardcore.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Yeah you would obviously kill those Pro boxers with your sick Tae Kwon Do skills.
Have you ever posted something that makes sense?

Best way of dealing with spacetime is not dealing with spacetime.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

If you want an honest answer - I think JKA shotokan is probably the best fit for MMA.

Ideally the best karate style would be a mix of JKA shotokan (or other) & kyokushin or an offshoot like Kudo, Enshin, Ashihara etc.


Personally from my experience in Kudo - I wouldn't recommend Kyokushin for anything MMA-esque. The only reasons is because sparring is with no head punches and from personal experience when I was doing Kyokushin & Kudo - the Kyokushin sparring was causing havoc in Kudo sparring - to the point I decided to drop it.

For me with Kyokushin the habit of lowering your hands to protect your body or parry body shots (which is what I tend to do) meant my hands kept dropping instinctively to protect or parry body shots leaving my face wide open (not so bad when you need to protect your head from kicks in Kyokushin because kicks are slower but awful for protecting punches to the face), the distancing issues were also huge (kyokushin is generally close range) it took me a while to readjust my range so everything was off in Kudo when I started (only was able to do it properly after stopping Kyokushin), the defensive issues it gave were also big - just basic boxing defense (parrying, slipping, bobbing - keep head off centre) were non-existent. There were pros though - I can take a punch a lot better than others in the dojo (unless I'm gassed otherwise even a tiny punch can wind me lol) & my kicks generally have more umph to them even when my flexibility sucks ass at the moment from constant knee injuries.


Kudo is great style to learn but even it has it's cons although I'd pick a Kudo fighter to beat any other Karate stylist in a fight tbh (in general) - while they aren't technically as sound as Karateka or grapplers (a lot of that is due to people in Kudo from all backgrounds so you learn a mesh of things under the banner of MMA Karate) you do have kudo guys that are focus more on one than the other & guys that are all rounders. The guys that focus on one more than the other tend to be just as technically proficient as your standard karateka or grappler. Generally because you split training time between the two - you won't be as perfect as someone that trains one solely or the other.

As a muay thai guy, I'm an elusive southpaw that has a lot of in-out movement like Sagat or Samart, as an orthodox however I like to stand in front of my opponent and hammer away at the lead leg. Now when I started grappling I found that the elusive style of striking I have as a southpaw was better for me in MMA style sparring because my opponent couldn't catch me... if I did it orthodox however and stood in front of my opponent I got taken down VERY quickly.

So I would say that distance is great for MMA as it is the foremost way to kill a takedown. HOWEVER, I would like to mention that guys like Machida and Wonderboy are exceptions to the rule. Machida has trained in full contact martial arts for almost as long as he's done shotokan, so he has always had the knowledge of what its like to be in a full contact fight outside of his karate.

As for Wonderboy his commitment to footwork and distance creating kicks is fantastic, but bare in mind that doing his style of freestyle kickboxing DOESN'T mean that you'll be a distance fighter like him. Wonderboy learned to keep distance and have measured boxing the hard way:



Taking away the controversial overturning of this fight at a no contest, what we see here is Wonderboy being very frustrated by Raymond Daniels (who also beat Michael Venom Page) who keeps the distance and Wonderboy keeps rushing in.

I personally wouldn't recommend you learn a karate style FOR MMA, but ultimately it is going to come down to how you use karate. Any striking style is going to have trouble assuming you don't start training grappling alongside your striking.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

I personally wouldn't recommend you learn a karate style FOR MMA, but ultimately it is going to come down to how you use karate. Any striking style is going to have trouble assuming you don't start training grappling alongside your striking.

I like Kyokushin and its offshoots for CROSSTRAINING. It'd be a tremendously bad use of your time to focus on any particular karate style if you want to do MMA, but doing Kyokushin sparring helped me a lot with my kicks -- especially close range ones. I still like to do it at times, just to focus on kicks.

But when you spar 99.9% of Kyokushin guys with kickboxing rules, you really see how important it is to crosstrain if you want to be a complete fighter. They're completely lost when punches to the head are introduced - hands in the wrong places, thinking they can walk in and open with kicks without worrying about punches, etc.