Where do you rank Mir and Lesnar amongst Heavyweights?

[JKS]

It's not a GOAT tier list. Look at the original post.

They are the same level of fighter.

The opening post is talking about rankings and where these would be ranked. And they're below the top tier. It all goes back to rankings.

 

[JKS]

First of all I hespect of Stipe. He's a top 5-6 HW of all time depending on the criteria which is a remarkable feat. I hespect of heem.

With that said I personally value Nog beating Werdum, Mirko, Barnett, Sergei, Herring 2x in their 20s over Stipe crushing old and washed up legends.

When Nog beat Sylvia, Tim was 32 years old and he was on the older side of Nogs opponents.

Meanwhile Stipe's best wins are 39 year old Werdum, 40 year old DC and green Ngannou who lost to Derrick Lewis in his very next fight.

Then he beat guys like 37 year old AA, washed up CTE JDS, 37 year old Reem who had been KOd in the UFC 3x already and like 16 times in his career.

Don't get me wrong these are decent wins but these wins are vastly over inflated by how they look on paper in comparison to their real world value based on WHEN he beat these guys.

As far as I'm concerned Stipe can't be ahead of Fedor, Nog, Werdum or DC.

I could also see how someone would put JDS ahead of Stipe too because IMO beating prime Cain and a much younger Werdum is better than Stipes best wins.

But if someone put Stipe ahead of JDS all time I could accept that.

The issue with the way you're looking at things is you're valuing age over actual accomplishments and level. Guys like Werdum in 2006, Cro Cop in 2003 Sergei in 2004 and Herring in 2002 are good wins, but these guys weren't accomplished HWs at the time, they barely had any top wins and were green. The only one that was a established top HW was Barnett. You're taking what these guys accomplished later in their careers when they developed and going back in time equatting them to the same level. Just cause Werdum beat Fedor and was UFC champ, doesn't mean beating him in 2006 is a great win.

Stipe's oppoents were older, but at that time they were on top of their game. Werdum was on the highest point of his career and champion, DC same thing, JDS and Reem were tilte fights. Beating Werdum at 38 when he's champ and at the highest point, is more valuable than beating him in 2006 when he was 2008 and barely had any top wins. All of Stipe's wins were over opponents that were far more developed and a higher level.

You contradict yourself by valuing those wins so high and then devaluing a win like Ngannou. You mentioned Ngannou was Green, despite having 6 UFC wins including wins over Overeem, Blaydes and Arlovski which is more than what all of those guys did at the time. And then mention he lost to Lewis after. Well, after Nog beat those guys, Cro Cop got KO'd by Randleman, Herring lost multiple fights and the other didn't do much for years. At least Ngannou put together a streak and won the belt.

I don't see how anyone can rank DC over Stipe considering Stipe is 2-1 H2H, more title defenses and stronger wins overall. Same with Werdum.

The other reason why I rank Stipe high is because of his accomplishments and how they are relevant to the current time in mma. Today its about top wins, title defenses and big legacy fights. Back then it was winning streaks, more volume of wins, fighting in different promotions. Stipe is more in line with today and what is valued. But that's just my personal assessment.

 

[Trabaho]

Ts made it up, I just rolled with it for the sake of the thread. Regardless, whether you use terms like “S tier” or you go with the conventional “top 3”, DC ain’t it at HW.

And the Strike force GP is not the sole determining factor for HW ranking. Fedor and Nog objectively have accomplished more at HW than DC, and if you disagree, you’re a clown who’s not to be taken seriously.

Barnett is DC’s best win imo, but the mythical “post Fedor win Bigfoot” is laughable when put forth as some sort of legacy defining win.

Why not Stipe as his besy win ?

Well DC fought between LHW & HW if you split it what is left of him

 

[NoSmilez]

The opening post is talking about rankings and where these would be ranked. And they're below the top tier. It all goes back to rankings.

He ranked DC, Werdum and Cain as S tier. It's not really a ranking by career thing.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

The issue with the way you're looking at things is you're valuing age over actual accomplishments and level. Guys like Werdum in 2006, Cro Cop in 2003 Sergei in 2004 and Herring in 2002 are good wins, but these guys weren't accomplished HWs at the time, they barely had any top wins and were green. The only one that was a established top HW was Barnett. You're taking what these guys accomplished later in their careers when they developed and going back in time equatting them to the same level. Just cause Werdum beat Fedor and was UFC champ, doesn't mean beating him in 2006 is a great win.

Stipe's oppoents were older, but at that time they were on top of their game. Werdum was on the highest point of his career and champion, DC same thing, JDS and Reem were tilte fights. Beating Werdum at 38 when he's champ and at the highest point, is more valuable than beating him in 2006 when he was 2008 and barely had any top wins. All of Stipe's wins were over opponents that were far more developed and a higher level.

You contradict yourself by valuing those wins so high and then devaluing a win like Ngannou. You mentioned Ngannou was Green, despite having 6 UFC wins including wins over Overeem, Blaydes and Arlovski which is more than what all of those guys did at the time. And then mention he lost to Lewis after. Well, after Nog beat those guys, Cro Cop got KO'd by Randleman, Herring lost multiple fights and the other didn't do much for years. At least Ngannou put together a streak and won the belt.

I don't see how anyone can rank DC over Stipe considering Stipe is 2-1 H2H, more title defenses and stronger wins overall. Same with Werdum.

The other reason why I rank Stipe high is because of his accomplishments and how they are relevant to the current time in mma. Today its about top wins, title defenses and big legacy fights. Back then it was winning streaks, more volume of wins, fighting in different promotions. Stipe is more in line with today and what is valued. But that's just my personal assessment.

Francis the 1st time vs Stipe I think you could perhaps argue he was a bit akin to Werdum vs Nog although I think Werdum arguebly tended to be more of a sideways evolution even if his absolute peak was the early 2010's, Pride Werdum was significantly more agile and able to get down for takedowns.

Herring at that point though was at his peak, coming off his best wins over Kerr and Erikson, two of the most highly rated HW's of the era.

Sergei his peak didnt last that long but I don't see any sound arguably he wasnt in it vs Nog.

Generally my option on Stipes wins is mixed, some of them like Reem and Werdum I think were not badly declined, others like Arlovski, JDS and Hunt the decline was quite significant.

 

[JKS]

Francis the 1st time vs Stipe I think you could perhaps argue he was a bit akin to Werdum vs Nog although I think Werdum arguebly tended to be more of a sideways evolution even if his absolute peak was the early 2010's, Pride Werdum was significantly more agile and able to get down for takedowns.

Herring at that point though was at his peak, coming off his best wins over Kerr and Erikson, two of the most highly rated HW's of the era.

Sergei his peak didnt last that long but I don't see any sound arguably he wasnt in it vs Nog.

Generally my option on Stipes wins is mixed, some of them like Reem and Werdum I think were not badly declined, others like Arlovski, JDS and Hunt the decline was quite significant.

I would certainly give more value to beating Ngannou at the time. He had several top wins already, 6-0 in the UFC and it was a title fight. Werdum had a few fights in Pride, 4-1 before facing Nog in the GP. The title fight alone gives it high value.

I think Stipe's best wins are the ones where still on top of their game, DC and Werdum. I think JDS and Reem was also still very much on top of his game. Hunt, Andrei were passed it no doubt.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

The issue with the way you're looking at things is you're valuing age over actual accomplishments and level. Guys like Werdum in 2006, Cro Cop in 2003 Sergei in 2004 and Herring in 2002 are good wins, but these guys weren't accomplished HWs at the time, they barely had any top wins and were green. The only one that was a established top HW was Barnett. You're taking what these guys accomplished later in their careers when they developed and going back in time equatting them to the same level. Just cause Werdum beat Fedor and was UFC champ, doesn't mean beating him in 2006 is a great win.

Stipe's oppoents were older, but at that time they were on top of their game. Werdum was on the highest point of his career and champion, DC same thing, JDS and Reem were tilte fights. Beating Werdum at 38 when he's champ and at the highest point, is more valuable than beating him in 2006 when he was 2008 and barely had any top wins. All of Stipe's wins were over opponents that were far more developed and a higher level.

You contradict yourself by valuing those wins so high and then devaluing a win like Ngannou. You mentioned Ngannou was Green, despite having 6 UFC wins including wins over Overeem, Blaydes and Arlovski which is more than what all of those guys did at the time. And then mention he lost to Lewis after. Well, after Nog beat those guys, Cro Cop got KO'd by Randleman, Herring lost multiple fights and the other didn't do much for years. At least Ngannou put together a streak and won the belt.

I don't see how anyone can rank DC over Stipe considering Stipe is 2-1 H2H, more title defenses and stronger wins overall. Same with Werdum.

The other reason why I rank Stipe high is because of his accomplishments and how they are relevant to the current time in mma. Today its about top wins, title defenses and big legacy fights. Back then it was winning streaks, more volume of wins, fighting in different promotions. Stipe is more in line with today and what is valued. But that's just my personal assessment.

In 2006 Werdum was in his 20s and a top 7 HW who after losing to Nog went 6-2 in his next 8 fights and mounted wins over Fedor, Aleks E, Bigfoot, Gonzaga and Brandon Vera in that span. I don't see how that's worse than beating 39 year old Werdum who went 4-5 in his next 9 fights.

I'd also argue that beating Sergei when he was in his 20s with a record of 10-1 was superior to beating 37 year old Arlovski, washed up CTE JDS or 37 year old Reem who had already been knocked out in the UFC 3x by the time Stipe fought him. When Nog fought Sergei he had never been knocked out and sure, he wasn't as "accomplished" but he was in his absolute peak form.

Same thing goes for Barnett. After losing to Big Nog, Barnett was at his absolute peak form and went 9-1 in his next 10 fights and went on absolute tear. Id rank this win higher than beating washed up CTE JDS who went 1-6 in his next 7 after losing to Stipe or 39 year old Werdum who went 4-5 after losing to Stipe.

For me personally beating a high level HW at their absolute peak right before they go on a great run is more impressive than beating an "accomplished" HW who's on the doorstep of 40 years old and retirement with no significant wins after losing to Stipe.

I agree Ngannou is one of Stipes best wins but he was clearly green. He lost to Derrick Lewis in his very next fight and that says a lot. It's no coincidence that a more seasoned Ngannou sent Stipe to the shadow realm in the rematch. It's no coincidence that when JDS still had some of his prime left even post Cain beatings, he still out classed prime Stipe. Stipe never did well when he fought great HWs in their peak form, Nog on the contrary did.

And yea it's not just the wins. In his first 3 years of fighting Stipe was 9-1 with an embarrassing loss to Stefan Struve. In Big Nogs first 3 years of fighting he was 19-1 and arguably undefeated with the loss being a robbery against Hendo in RINGS which he avenged via finish. Nog was way more active early on and never lost to Struve level fighter when he was young AND he went on to beat great HWs at their peak and in their 20s. Stipe can't say he did the same.

Again I hespect of Stipe and rank him as a top 5-6 HW of all time. Maybe 5 if you rank JDS below him but good arguments can be made for JDS being ranked above Stipe based on his wins over prime Cain and younger Werdum but I wouldn't be mad if someone ranked Stipe over him either.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you value more: beating and old and accomplished fighter who's either washed up or close to being washed up or beating a less accomplished fighter who's very good and who's in his peak form and goes on a nice run after.

For me it's the latter.

Peace King.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Why not Stipe as his besy win ?

Well DC fought between LHW & HW if you split it what is left of him

Because it was a dubious win that was gained through flagrant eye pokes, and then Stipe avenged it 2x. Technically, yes, it’s a win, and Stipe is obviously higher on the lost then Barnett, but the circumstances are sus. I disregard it.

 

[Streeter]

Brock didn't have the resume total . But he beat some good fighters and only lost to champs. He massacred Mir their 2nd fight . Brock > Mir

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I would certainly give more value to beating Ngannou at the time. He had several top wins already, 6-0 in the UFC and it was a title fight. Werdum had a few fights in Pride, 4-1 before facing Nog in the GP. The title fight alone gives it high value.

I think Stipe's best wins are the ones where still on top of their game, DC and Werdum. I think JDS and Reem was also still very much on top of his game. Hunt, Andrei were passed it no doubt.

Not sure theres too much difference there, Werdum had wins over Gonzaga, Erikson and Overeem, Ngannou had wins over Bladyes, Overeem anr Arlovski. The hype was stronger for Ngannou but I think a lot of that is down to the environment he was in and the nature of the wins.

A big issue generally I would argue is that UFC fights between big names tend to be between guys in a run of form so at their peak rankings were as Pride tended to match up big names a bit more randomly. Granted sometimes a fighter declines very quickly after a bad loss but often I think the actual level they are at doesnt change much in the short term. When Fedor beat Hunt for example was that a worse Hunt that Barnett beat? not really but the Barnett win was vs a much higher ranked Hunt coming off of beating Mirko.

JDS hadnt hit his really step decline yet but I think he was clearly in decline by the time of the second Stipe fight. Cormier honestly I think its harder to say for sure but he was surely getting on by the 2nd fight and honestly I thought neither man looked good in the 3rd fight.

Generally I think the early/mid 00's was a very "honest" era at HW, because the sport was still fairly new you did not have a load of declined fighters being kept around for name value. Guys who did drop off in that era like say Kerr or Ricco they tended to vanish from top level MMA were as the UFC started to realise the value of keeping around "name value" to get over newer fighters.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

In 2006 Werdum was in his 20s and a top 7 HW who after losing to Nog went 6-2 in his next 8 fights with wins over Fedor, Aleks E, Bigfoot, Gonzaga and Brandon Vera in that span. I don't see how that's worse than beating 39 year old Werdum who went 4-5 in his next 9 fights.

I'd also argue that beating Sergei when he was in his 20s with a record of 10-1 was superior to beating 37 year old Arlovski, washed up CTE JDS or 37 year old Reem who had already been knocked out in the UFC 3x by the time Stipe fought him. When Nog fought Sergei he had never been knocked out and sure, he wasn't as "accomplished" but he was in his absolute peak form.

Same thing goes for Barnett. After losing to Big Nog, Barnett was at his absolute peak form and went 9-1 in his next 10 fights and went on absolute tear. Id rank this win higher than beating washed up CTE JDS who went 1-6 in his next 7 after losing to Stipe or 39 year old Werdum who went 4-5 after losing to Stipe.

For me personally beating a high level HW at their absolute peak right before they go on a great run is more impressive than beating an "accomplished" HW who's on the doorstep of 40 years old and retirement with no significant wins after losing to Stipe.

I agree Ngannou is one of Stipes best wins but he was clearly green. He lost to Derrick Lewis in his very next fight and that says a lot. It's no coincidence that a more seasoned Ngannou sent Stipe to the shadow realm in the rematch. It's no coincidence that when JDS still had some of his prime left even post Cain beatings, he still out classed prime Stipe. Stipe never did well when he fought great HWs in their peak form, Nog on the contrary did.

And yea it's not just the wins. In his first 3 years of fighting Stipe was 9-1 with an embarrassing loss to Stefan Struve. In Big Nogs first 3 years of fighting he was 19-1 and arguable undefeated with the loss being a robbery against Hendo in RINGS which he avenged via finish. Nog was way more active early on and never lost to a Stephan Struve level fighter when he was young AND he went on to beat great HWs at their peak and in their 20s. Stipe can't say he did the same.

Again I hespect of Stipe and rank him as a top 5-6 HW of all time. Maybe 5 if you rank JDS below him but good arguments can be made for JDS being ranked above Stipe based on his wins over prime Cain and younger Werdum but I wouldn't be mad if someone ranked Stipe over him either.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you value more: beating and old and accomplished fighter who's either washed up or close to being washed up or beating a less accomplished fighter who's very good and who's in his peak form and goes on a nice run after.

For me it's the latter.

Peace King.

Really looking at Nogs career I think pretty much the only big win of his who was clearly on the decline was Randy but then again I think Nog himself was even more on the decline despite being much younger having a lot more mileage on him.

Again I think a big issue is that was simply an "honest" era, there were not many declined big names around and promoters hadnt really learnt who to exploit them to the degree the UFC did latter on.

I feel UFC hype tends to overplay fighters being "green" and underplay decline to match their own promotion style were fighters often need to slave away for years to get noticed by them and were they like to exploit declining fighters name value. Granted "Green" fighters do exist, someone like Alex P losing early in his career for example with very limited grappling experience but in no way was Werdum "Green" vs Nog the first time. He'd been fighting for 4 years by that point and worked several years with Mirko's camp on striking.

What I think people mistake for "Green" is fighters shifting their focus and tactics latter in their career, Werdum did definitely change as a fighter from his Pride run to his latter run working with Chute Boxe but Pride Werdum was a fighter who had plenty of time to cross train to a good level, just one focused more on defence standing and using his greater agility at that stage to have more grappling offence.

 

[BROWNPRIDE]

Brock is top 20 for sure

 

[AstralPanda]

DC top 3 HW of all time???

For beating Monson, Bigfoot, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Stipe, and Lewis???

It's actually shocking how underrated DC is

 

[Trabaho]

Because it was a dubious win that was gained through flagrant eye pokes, and then Stipe avenged it 2x. Technically, yes, it’s a win, and Stipe is obviously higher on the lost then Barnett, but the circumstances are sus. I disregard it.

I agree. I'm team Croatia. I was the first to write it on DCs page that he eye pokes and than everyone called him out on it. I wrote like 3-4 times and got the ball rolling. DC was a ckena fighter 95% of the time. But when he got older he cheated the scale vs Rumble and resorted to eye pokes to squeeze a win in vs Stipe. DC threw blatant eye poke jabs to try to win and follow them up with strikes when Stipe held his eyes.

Failure by the UFC and officials to punish eye strikes. 100% of the time they are ruled unintentional. Jones and DC exploited the rule.

Again DC was a honorable athlete 95% if the time. He is funny, a top 10 mma goat in ky regards and a great commentator according to my taste. I have forgiven him.

 

[markg171]

It's actually shocking how underrated DC is

Notice you didn’t have any counter point to the fact that factual DC only has a handful of noteworthy HW wins.

He doesn’t get extra credit for his LHW wins and dual champ status when only specifically talking about HW careers corn nuts.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Really looking at Nogs career I think pretty much the only big win of his who was clearly on the decline was Randy but then again I think Nog himself was even more on the decline despite being much younger having a lot more mileage on him.

Again I think a big issue is that was simply an "honest" era, there were not many declined big names around and promoters hadnt really learnt who to exploit them to the degree the UFC did latter on.

I feel UFC hype tends to overplay fighters being "green" and underplay decline to match their own promotion style were fighters often need to slave away for years to get noticed by them and were they like to exploit declining fighters name value. Granted "Green" fighters do exist, someone like Alex P losing early in his career for example with very limited grappling experience but in no way was Werdum "Green" vs Nog the first time. He'd been fighting for 4 years by that point and worked several years with Mirko's camp on striking.

What I think people mistake for "Green" is fighters shifting their focus and tactics latter in their career, Werdum did definitely change as a fighter from his Pride run to his latter run working with Chute Boxe but Pride Werdum was a fighter who had plenty of time to cross train to a good level, just one focused more on defence standing and using his greater agility at that stage to have more grappling offence.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Notice you didn’t have any counter point to the fact that factual DC only has a handful of noteworthy HW wins.

He doesn’t get extra credit for his LHW wins and dual champ status when only specifically talking about HW careers corn nuts.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

I agree. I'm team Croatia. I was the first to write it on DCs page that he eye pokes and than everyone called him out on it. I wrote like 3-4 times and got the ball rolling. DC was a ckena fighter 95% of the time. But when he got older he cheated the scale vs Rumble and resorted to eye pokes to squeeze a win in vs Stipe. DC threw blatant eye poke jabs to try to win and follow them up with strikes when Stipe held his eyes.

Failure by the UFC and officials to punish eye strikes. 100% of the time they are ruled unintentional. Jones and DC exploited the rule.

Again DC was a honorable athlete 95% if the time. He is funny, a top 10 mma goat in ky regards and a great commentator according to my taste. I have forgiven him.

That’s fine. I wish he would have stayed at HW when he came to the UFC. I get the whole Cane thing, but honestly I think he screwed his legacy. He could have very well ran through HW and cemented himself as a HW GOAT, but instead, he blew his wad at LHW where he was 2nd best. His little dalliance at HW in the UFC wasn’t really a good look. He claimed his back was fucked but took a stylistically easy fight in black beast before he rematched Stipe. Weak sauce imo.

I don’t hate the guy, and I enjoy his candidness during commentary. He seems like a fun guy to train with or be around. If I wasn’t a huge Stipe fan, I might view him differently. I just can’t get behind any talk about him as a GOAT HW. Like I said, 10-15, which ain’t a bad thing.

 

[Blanqa Blanqua]

Yeah hes in the top 10-15 for sure sir.

He did ok in UFC.

I see u been slapped with a yellow. What did you do? Something naughty, something sordid?

 

[StonedLemur]

He did ok in UFC.

I see u been slapped with a yellow. What did you do? Something naughty, something sordid?

Something stupid lol