When does karate stop being karate?

[zumbulare]

I keep advocating for more goju like rules for karate combat but I keep getting push back that it will just look like MMA lol.

Came across some Russian goju just now

Great video. Once art or sport is stripped down to functional basics, they all start looking a like. There is not much difference between karate in this video and sanda, sambo, mma etc.

 

[zumbulare]

I wonder if Karate still
has a chance attracting full contact audience and talent. Unlike sambo for example, karate has a name recognition and infrastructure (dojos and international federations) if they could get couple mma stars or champions karate image could change from kids mcdojos to wholistic functional art and combat sport

 

[JohnPJones]

I wonder if Karate still
has a chance attracting full contact audience and talent. Unlike sambo for example, karate has a name recognition and infrastructure (dojos and international federations) if they could get couple mma stars or champions karate image could change from kids mcdojos to wholistic functional art and combat sport

We have 11 UFC champions, and god only knows how many kickboxing champions

even if we only go by people whose style looks like point fighters’ styles we still have 2 UFC champs

 

[zumbulare]

We have 11 UFC champions, and god only knows how many kickboxing champions

perception is they are champions because of their cross training not goju like rules karate.

 

[JohnPJones]

perception is they are champions because of their cross training not goju like rules karate.

We’ll never get rid of that perception.
Machida was only a champion because of his cross training, same for wonderboy.

but that’s true for ALL UFC champions they’re only champions because of their cross training. So I don’t get why cross training is such a big deal for karateka.

there’s a weird bias against both karate and TKD in the MMA world.
KB community acknowledges when a fighter comes from one of those two TMAs in a way just don’t really see in MMA yet.

however I hope karate combat will increase the interest in karate from serious combat sport PoV. But even if it does I suspect point fighting will still be the dominant form of competition for karateka. Partially because KC designed their rules to be very similar to point fighting, so they can recruit from people with point fighting backgrounds.

no one looks at a boxer in MMA and says the only reason they can throw hands is because they cross trained in MT.
Same for a wrestler. No one says the only reason they can take people down is because of BJJ cross training they obviously did.

 

[zumbulare]

We’ll never get rid of that perception.
Machida was only a champion because of his cross training, same for wonderboy.

but that’s true for ALL UFC champions they’re only champions because of their cross training. So I don’t get why cross training is such a big deal for karateka.

no one looks at a boxer in MMA and says the only reason they can throw hands is because they cross trained in MT.
Same for a wrestler. No one says the only reason they can take people down is because of BJJ cross training they obviously did.

I agree. Machida was big name and I Wonderboy could have been UFC star if he had not lost couple decisions. Big names like that can defined help sport image. It is interesting that even competitions like K1 (which I believe started as karate tournament) in
minds of most fans, and probably athletes, are seen as separate sport, kickboxing, and not offshoot or another karate rules.

 

[JohnPJones]

I agree. Machida was big name and I Wonderboy could have been UFC star if he had not lost couple decisions. Big names like that can defined help sport image. It is interesting that even competitions like K1 (which I believe started as karate tournament) in
minds of most fans, and probably athletes, are seen as separate sport, kickboxing, and not offshoot or another karate rules.

Idk why you don’t think wonderboy is a UFC star, he’s a champion. Pretty sure that gets you star status.

yeah the evolution of kickboxing in Japan and the US began with karate(and MT)
The reason I think people don’t consider KB as a form of karate is because gyms that were strictly kickboxing opened up and they ditched the 3K methodology completely, and few if any karateka wear their gi in high level kickboxing matches, so to the lay person who may occasionally watch a match on TV they appear to be 2 completely separate things.

 

[zumbulare]

Idk why you don’t think wonderboy is a UFC star, he’s a champion. Pretty sure that gets you star status.

yeah the evolution of kickboxing in Japan and the US began with karate(and MT)
The reason I think people don’t consider KB as a form of karate is because gyms that were strictly kickboxing opened up and they ditched the 3K methodology completely, and few if any karateka wear their gi in high level kickboxing matches, so to the lay person who may occasionally watch a match on TV they appear to be 2 completely separate things.

Star is kind od subjective term. There is a reason UFC is not promoting him heavily and I would argue he is not much of fan draw. Casual fans that but PPV wanna see knockdowns and slams and karate can offer plenty of that, but Wonderboy does not, he is too smart and cautious of fighter (which he should be and true fans of fight game appreciate it). Machida knockout of Couture, Raymon Daniels highlights in Glory is what casuals wanna see and you would think that kind of stuff would help karate.
I would have thought, when Machida become champion and everyone started talking of new era, Machida era, mma gims would bring karate coaches to help with cross training.
Do you think there is dogma in karate dojos where they are expecting everyone to start at beginning, in gi as white belt and not willing to cross train other athletes and teach tem only few things to compliment their game?

 

[JohnPJones]

A lot of karate

Star is kind od subjective term. There is a reason UFC is not promoting him heavily and I would argue he is not much of fan draw. Casual fans that but PPV wanna see knockdowns and slams and karate can offer plenty of that, but Wonderboy does not, he is too smart and cautious of fighter (which he should be and true fans of fight game appreciate it). Machida knockout of Couture, Raymon Daniels highlights in Glory is what casuals wanna see and you would think that kind of stuff would help karate.
I would have thought, when Machida become champion and everyone started talking of new era, Machida era, mma gims would bring karate coaches to help with cross training.
Do you think there is dogma in karate dojos where they are expecting everyone to start at beginning, in gi as white belt and not willing to cross train other athletes and teach tem only few things to compliment their game?

dojos will want someone to start from the beginning. Finding a coach willing to teach point fighting footwork and tactics at an MMA gym wouldn’t be a bad idea, but MMA gyms just think that’s not necessary

 

[SandisLL]

I wonder if Karate still
has a chance attracting full contact audience and talent. Unlike sambo for example, karate has a name recognition

Completely wrong approach.
Name recognition is stuff like belts, thank you for this beauty.
In sambo you need to compete to get any credentials.

Name recognition is cool talk nothing more.
Like these tribal and nationalistic talks.

I for example will use software partially made in Canada, NZ and EE and UK just cos I don't have tribal like problems.

Name recognition for karate?
Thank you, I had a lot to learn in KB gym after this the same karate and real da Tech Street.

 

[zumbulare]

Completely wrong approach.
Name recognition is stuff like belts, thank you for this beauty.
In sambo you need to compete to get any credentials.

Name recognition is cool talk nothing more.
Like these tribal and nationalistic talks.

I for example will use software partially made in Canada, NZ and EE and UK just cos I don't have tribal like problems.

Name recognition for karate?
Thank you, I had a lot to learn in KB gym after this the same karate and real da Tech Street.

i am not sure what you are trying to say and i think you miss understood my post

 

[Matsukaze]

i am not sure what you are trying to say and i think you miss understood my post

I'm glad it wasn't just me Lol I was really confused

 

[SandisLL]

i think you miss understood my post

Maybe.
When I had attempted to compete in KB my head movement sucked too much and I had first interest about boxing only because KB coach told: please use at least a bit boxing gym.

I never had intent to be champ, I just was kid from rough hood who loved to fight.
Gym= better than street and there it is.
I don't have disrespect to TMAs, be this TKD or karate.
Unless how this is trained.
Light contact or at least heavy bag ? Etc things.
Stuff we might see as TKD or karate semi contatct isn't karate or TKD.

TKD even does have open hands strikes, etc things.

Karate too is effective stuff, unless they claim to be MMA creators, then pancrase etc too might claim this with a glance.

 

[Kertol]

I’d like to blame him because shotokan is the epitome of what’s wrong with karate these days, but it started before him even.

ironically today grappling is seen as safer for kids, but when Te was integrated into the Okinawan school system the grappling was removed because it was believed that the potential for breaking joints was too dangerous for children.

The Japanese govt actually sought karate out to be japan’s version of boxing, since judo was their version of wrestling during their attempts at westernization.

And yeah based on old footage it’s really hard to say how techniques were taught in 1890 compared to 1920 as that’s a generation and a half of students-instructors and if I remember correctly karate was turned into PE class for schools around 1900.

not a bad memory, 1905 lol. So yeah kids who started in school around 12 would have been 27 or so by the time video cameras might have realistically captured their training or demonstrations, and may have never been taught the grappling as a result…or maybe people like me are delusional and scrambling desperately to make karate cool and relevant again and the blocks were always blocks?

I think the bunkai for most of those "blocks" were definitely grappling moves originally. It makes the most sense by far and I saw first hand myself how things get lost when passed down from one instructor to student then that student goes on to become an instructor after 5-10 years now within a 50 year period for example you have 5 instances of that loss of knowledge and watering down.

I don't consider a Karate teacher to be a good one unless he teaches some grappling/fits into the style even some of the older Shotokan/Kyokoshun instructors taught some grappling especially with the ippon kumite drills.

 

[Kertol]

To answer the original question, I think a solid answer in my opinion is when they stop teaching the 3 primary Karate training Methods (Kata, Kihon, Kumite) and only focus on one or two of them with a lack of focus on self defense. People forget that the purpose of Karate is self defense based not sport/competition based. You can also say the deviation in culture/tradition further amplifies the separation.

Let's use kickboxing as an example: In Japan, America, Netherlands kickboxing started out as Karate in most instances but over the course of decades they have abandoned the kata and kihon training methods and primarily focused on sport not self defense plus the deviation from culture/tradition (no gi or belt system which even Okinawa adopted from Japan) it's safe to no longer call it Karate anymore.

Yes there are karate dojos that are heavily competition based as well but they all teach the fundamentals of karate for self defense palm strikes, ridge hands, knife hands, groin strikes, chokes/sweeps etc. (not taught in kickboxing for example but are all part of Kihon and Kata). All the high level karate competitors were brought up with this and later focused more on competition when they became advanced.

 

[SandisLL]

Let's use kickboxing as an example: In Japan, America, Netherlands kickboxing started out as Karate in most instances

I do not agree.
I think kickboxing like MMA is rule set: what is allowed and what isn't.
Euro KB did had guys with different backgrounds and I think usually no one then cared too much.
Later special gyms for KB had appeared and main aim was to teach for competitions.

Yes there are karate dojos that are heavily competition based as well but they all teach the fundamentals of karate for self defense palm strikes, ridge hands, knife hands, groin strikes, chokes/sweeps etc. (not taught in kickboxing for example but are all part of Kihon and Kata).

KB usually ( in europe ) does have more impact from boxing than it is assumed.
Boxing is specialized craft and unlike with karate.......

When you have any gloves, it isn't nor karate nor JJJ nor specialised grappling anymore.

Yeah, and kicks there.
Clinch time limit and strikes limit in clinch if enforced with rule book.
It isn't nor MT nor karate anymore, like semi contact karate isn't karate and kick light kicboxing isn't KB anymore too.

Semi contact had different rule sets too: like he hits you or attempts to hit you, then you conuter him and he get something.
You wait until panel will decide how to score this and you continue after this.
Or next variant: continue without interrupts and think not to hit too hard ( for judges ).
Damn, it isn't karate.
Karate, JJJ etc are more close to the same MMA, KB than this.

Foot sweeps might be taught in kickboxing, under xx rule sets to kick below ankle with intent to disbalance is allowed.
U.S kickboxing usually is PAK type: above waist kicks are allowed.
Euro KB is : low kick, full contact and K-1 type rules ( more close to Glory KB rules ) for ams.
FC is more close to PAK KB.

 

[JohnPJones]

To answer the original question, I think a solid answer in my opinion is when they stop teaching the 3 primary Karate training Methods (Kata, Kihon, Kumite) and only focus on one or two of them with a lack of focus on self defense. People forget that the purpose of Karate is self defense based not sport/competition based. You can also say the deviation in culture/tradition further amplifies the separation.

Let's use kickboxing as an example: In Japan, America, Netherlands kickboxing started out as Karate in most instances but over the course of decades they have abandoned the kata and kihon training methods and primarily focused on sport not self defense plus the deviation from culture/tradition (no gi or belt system which even Okinawa adopted from Japan) it's safe to no longer call it Karate anymore.

Yes there are karate dojos that are heavily competition based as well but they all teach the fundamentals of karate for self defense palm strikes, ridge hands, knife hands, groin strikes, chokes/sweeps etc. (not taught in kickboxing for example but are all part of Kihon and Kata). All the high level karate competitors were brought up with this and later focused more on competition when they became advanced.

There’s a lot of dojos who are solely focused on competition and palm strikes and the like are only done in kata with little to no actual teaching the techniques and how to use them because they’re of no use in point fighting and only good for kata competition.

 

[SandisLL]

palm strikes and the like are only done in kata

Not rarely all open hands stuff.( striking with open hands technique ).

Plus if scoring criteria values high kicks higher than punch etc ( aka TKD, point karate ), this ofc does impact training.
If to be fair: not all stuff from JJJ or dirty wrestle , karate is possible to spar.
The same open hands stuff is one from this.

 

[Kertol]

There’s a lot of dojos who are solely focused on competition and palm strikes and the like are only done in kata with little to no actual teaching the techniques and how to use them because they’re of no use in point fighting and only good for kata competition.

Yes unfortunately many instructors have been watering down what they teach for decades now. You still have legit places though.

 

[JohnPJones]

Yes unfortunately many instructors have been watering down what they teach for decades now. You still have legit places though.

They still exist they’re just few and far between.

honestly my own dojo where I came up has nose dived in quality, and the organization as a whole in my opinion is going down hill. Looking back I think it started when the founder left his original dojo that was the hombu for decades.
I remember in my teen years the hombu dojo was full of badasses. Many of the badasses are still there, they’re just in their 60s or even 70s now, and when I emailed to ask about a sparring partner to prepare for a MT tournament they only had one dude left there they could even ask if he’d be willing to work with me, and the new adults who watched us after class made it seem like this was a novelty they had seen before.