When does karate stop being karate?

[JohnPJones]

I asked karateka on reddit what makes karate, karate.

what could be be removed that’s quintessential karate, while keeping the style what you’d call karate.

example
Is it still karate if there is 0 kata training?

 

[KOcounter]

I asked karateka on reddit what makes karate, karate.

what could be be removed that’s quintessential karate, while keeping the style what you’d call karate.

example
Is it still karate if there is 0 kata training?

This is a pretty difficult one. There is an argument to be made that a karate style ceases to be "traditional" if it lacks the practice of kata (note that the idea of "traditional karate" whilst not without any merit is tenuous and should not be equated with "old").

This would still include styles like Ashihara however that scrapped traditional kata in favour of something more akin to prearranged shadow boxing tho, so there's also an argument that the kata must have some more direct lineage to okinawan/Chinese movements to be traditional, so this is debatable. It probably does not need to have kata to be a non traditional form tho.

To me "real" karate must involve some use of the lower limbs and is always focused on fighting off the ground, whether that constitutes striking or clinch work/throws. Whether this means it can't have ground work is another matter, albeit it definately losses some authenticity on one level or at least in terms of tradition if it has full on ground grappling.

The idea of karate as a form of fencing or distance striking however is a product of a modern mainland Japanese view of "traditional" karate and is removed from the classical okinawan karate focus on a considerable amount of close range clinch striking and grappling.

 

[Dexter]

What makes boxing a boxing and not brawling? Shadowboxing?

 

[JohnPJones]

What makes boxing a boxing and not brawling? Shadowboxing?

One of the inspirations for this line of thought was in my thread about the Georgian goju dojo.

someone said something like “that’s MMA with a karate flair/flavor” or something along those lines.
Notably in that specific video there were no gis and no clips of kata practice. However other videos on the channel do include gis and kata.

 

[MilkManUK]

One of the inspirations for this line of thought was in my thread about the Georgian goju dojo.

someone said something like “that’s MMA with a karate flair/flavor” or something along those lines.
Notably in that specific video there were no gis and no clips of kata practice. However other videos on the channel do include gis and kata.

I don't think the wearing of a gi necessarily is a good indication of whether it's karate or not, as I believe the wearing of the gi was something introduced by judo, which is a much newer art than "traditional" karate.

 

[Dexter]

One of the inspirations for this line of thought was in my thread about the Georgian goju dojo.

someone said something like “that’s MMA with a karate flair/flavor” or something along those lines.
Notably in that specific video there were no gis and no clips of kata practice. However other videos on the channel do include gis and kata.

I’m in no way a karateka (70-80s “white pajamas” boom in USSR somehow missed me), but I had a chance to train under one of our top sport karate coaches for some time. Superb specialist with typical for Soviet trainers scientific view on everything. So, in my opinion, katas are a must for a high lvl guys (black belt+), and are useless for beginners. Newbies need a lot of kihon, conditioning, flexibility and decent chunk of partner drilling. Only after the basics are drilled to death comes the upper lvl stuff - katas, etc. Otherwise, we either see only formal understanding and application as in sport karate or a sparring-centered approach as in KK. And truth lies somewhere in between. As you have said, karate is a MA, not a jap folk dancing. If ppl view it as such, it’s a good karate, if not - just another bullshitdo. No matter the visual attributes - gi’s, belts, terminology usage and so on.

 

[j123]

What makes boxing a boxing and not brawling? Shadowboxing?

too much focus on aggression and lack of form. When you promote risk and lack of defense/stance for aggression, its brawling

I’m in no way a karateka (70-80s “white pajamas” boom in USSR somehow missed me), but I had a chance to train under one of our top sport karate coaches for some time. Superb specialist with typical for Soviet trainers scientific view on everything. So, in my opinion, katas are a must for a high lvl guys (black belt+), and are useless for beginners. Newbies need a lot of kihon, conditioning, flexibility and decent chunk of partner drilling. Only after the basics are drilled to death comes the upper lvl stuff - katas, etc. Otherwise, we either see only formal understanding and application as in sport karate or a sparring-centered approach as in KK. And truth lies somewhere in between. As you have said, karate is a MA, not a jap folk dancing. If ppl view it as such, it’s a good karate, if not - just another bullshitdo. No matter the visual attributes - gi’s, belts, terminology usage and so on.

I'm in the same mindset, new guys need to "learn how to fight", as they get more experienced, more fancy and uber technical methods can be used to help them grow, but as a rookie? Nope , need to learn the absolute basics and how to fight, esp if they come from a non-athletic background and started martial arts in their 20s with nothing behind them

 

[Sweeptheleg7]

I asked karateka on reddit what makes karate, karate.

what could be be removed that’s quintessential karate, while keeping the style what you’d call karate.

example
Is it still karate if there is 0 kata training?

Well, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion that it is no longer karate when there is no more Chinese influence. Karate used to be referred to as Chinese hand but got changed to empty hand to distance karate from its Chinese martial art influence.

In theory, stuff like proper body structure/alignment to maximize power is a big part of it. That’s why stance work and kata are so important. They want to maximize power without having power leaking out to parts of the body that are structurally weak. There is a reason why people don’t deadlift with a curved back. If you punch with a curved back some of the power leaks into the back and you lose power, theoretically. I don’t think it’s practical to always fight in this stance, but I think it’ll be useful in some situations like a grappling situation. That’s just one example.

 

[JohnPJones]

Not going to make a topic for this, so I’ll just post my lament here.

karate as a whole I think is too far gone to be saved.
On r/karate someone posted that wing chun v karate video and the number of people saying things like “I didn’t see any karate there” because the karateka didn’t fight like it was a point match was very saddening.
They wanted the dude to be doing empty handed hikite when punching for crying out loud.

I believe we’ll continue to see karateka in MMA and KB in the future including the highest levels, but I don’t think there will ever be a sizeable enough population of karateka interested in serious combat sports and pressure testing self defense techniques to ever really break karate away from point fighting.
I had hoped KC would help with that, but I don’t think it will. I think KC will stick around for a while but it will be super niche. Not even all karateka support it (because it “doesn’t look like karate”) and it will get some interest from KB/MT/MMA fans but likely only as a mild curiosity leaving the promotion as some weird middle level combat sport promotion that will be fairly well recognized globally, but likely won’t ever have their own super stars in the promotion.

 

[JohnPJones]

Well, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion that it is no longer karate when there is no more Chinese influence. Karate used to be referred to as Chinese hand but got changed to empty hand to distance karate from its Chinese martial art influence.

In theory, stuff like proper body structure/alignment to maximize power is a big part of it. That’s why stance work and kata are so important. They want to maximize power without having power leaking out to parts of the body that are structurally weak. There is a reason why people don’t deadlift with a curved back. If you punch with a curved back some of the power leaks into the back and you lose power, theoretically. I don’t think it’s practical to always fight in this stance, but I think it’ll be useful in some situations like a grappling situation. That’s just one example.

Well karate does have grappling origins so maybe that’s why they choose more upright postures.

 

[Vergilius]

Kata, Kihon, Kumite - Gi, Obi, Coloured belts - Dojo-kun, an atmosphere of respect, an emphasis on control of your movements and emotions. You could remove one or two of those elements, but if you take away more, then it isn't "traditional" karate in my view.

For instance: some young guys are only interested in kumite and drop doing kata as soon as they get their black belt - they are still karate fighters, though. Take away their uniforms and have them go full-contact with no control and they will perhaps be more like mma guys.

 

[JohnPJones]

Kata, Kihon, Kumite - Gi, Obi, Coloured belts - Dojo-kun, an atmosphere of respect, an emphasis on control of your movements and emotions. You could remove one or two of those elements, but if you take away more, then it isn't "traditional" karate in my view.

For instance: some young guys are only interested in kumite and drop doing kata as soon as they get their black belt - they are still karate fighters, though. Take away their uniforms and have them go full-contact with no control and they will perhaps be more like mma guys.

But there are undoubtedly karate fighters who are MMA guys, and classifying MMA guys as not having control seems ignorant to say the least

 

[Vergilius]

But there are undoubtedly karate fighters who are MMA guys, and classifying MMA guys as not having control seems ignorant to say the least

I don't mean control in the sense that a fighter is "out of control" with their punches in the sense that they don't know what they are doing - but in the sense that within the discipline of karate you always throw your punches and kicks with control and correct technique (staying balanced, chambering your kicks, not unduly hurting opponents, pulling hikite etc.).

 

[JohnPJones]

I don't mean control in the sense that a fighter is "out of control" with their punches in the sense that they don't know what they are doing - but in the sense that within the discipline of karate you always throw your punches and kicks with control and correct technique (staying balanced, chambering your kicks, not unduly hurting opponents, pulling hikite etc.).

a lot of what you describes sounds like just reinforcing the misconceptions of karate, like expecting karateka to just be doing hikite

 

[Matsukaze]

If you take the kata practice out of karate then what you are doing is basically kickboxing.

 

[JohnPJones]

If you take the kata practice out of karate then what you are doing is basically kickboxing.

Kickboxing doesn’t have much grappling depending on the ruleset none.

 

[Matsukaze]

Kickboxing doesn’t have much grappling depending on the ruleset none.

Most (not all obviously) karate schools don't have grappling either and that's a problem the Gracies brought to light in the 90's. Some traditional or classical schools do some tegumi but that's mostly wrists locks and standing joint manipulation. One would think this day and age that most, if not all, karate schools would have some type of grappling / jiu-jitsu program to offer as well. I guess some places are just holding out

 

[JohnPJones]

Most (not all obviously) karate schools don't have grappling either and that's a problem the Gracies brought to light in the 90's. Some traditional or classical schools do some tegumi but that's mostly wrists locks and standing joint manipulation. One would think this day and age that most, if not all, karate schools would have some type of grappling / jiu-jitsu program to offer as well. I guess some places are just holding out

Tegumi is quite a bit more more than a few wrist locks.
It definitely has actual take downs.
I mean karate still has sweeps and things like Lyoto’s famous gedan barai Uke.

but ya a lot of karate does still have basically no grappling in it, but KB has absolutely 0 grappling stand up or otherwise.

 

[Noodles03]

I like this quote

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I asked karateka on reddit what makes karate, karate.

what could be be removed that’s quintessential karate, while keeping the style what you’d call karate.

example
Is it still karate if there is 0 kata training?

When it starts resembling actual fighting imo