When comparing this fight between top fighters in the 60s, what has changed the most?

[Intermission]

Besides the fact that they were in much better condition, is it it pretty much the same as today, no real change? I only watch title fights in boxing.

 

[djacobox372]

HW boxing is the only pro sport that has declined over the last 50 years... too few great athletes take it up--they are all taken by the NFL, NBA and other more socially acceptable sports.

If Ali was born today he'd be a NFL quarterback or wide receiver.

 

[SuperLuigi]

HW boxing is the only pro sport that has declined over the last 50 years... too few great athletes take it up--they are all taken by the NFL, NBA and other more socially acceptable sports.

If Ali was born today he'd be a NFL quarterback or wide receiver.

Ball sports existed back then too. The fact that there were such great fighters was just a coincidence. It happens in every sport that there are golden ages.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

What's changed at heavyweight? The example you've given is from the golden age of the division (60s–70s). We'll likely never see that again. All sports, and individual divisions in combat sports, have had their highs & lows. It fluctuates over time.

The current heavyweight era doesn't compare to the 60s–70s in terms of overall skill & conditioning but the trade-off was increased size. Guys like Cleveland Williams & Ernie Terrell, two of the larger guys back then, wouldn't be considered big today. Terrell had good height but the average heavyweight now is around 6'5 250 lbs. Modern heavies are monsters compared to back then. They hit harder, can do it from farther away, are more physically imposing, and generally they can take more punishment.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

HW boxing is the only pro sport that has declined over the last 50 years... too few great athletes take it up--they are all taken by the NFL, NBA and other more socially acceptable sports.

If Ali was born today he'd be a NFL quarterback or wide receiver.

You're serious? Boxing as a whole already peaked a long time ago. Meaning, the entire sport has been in decline not just the heavyweight division. Baseball already had its golden age. It lasted around 30–40 years from 1920 to the 50s/60s depending on who you ask. That was baseball at its peak. Other major sports have also had theirs come and go. They're in the same boat.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

HW boxing is the only pro sport that has declined over the last 50 years... too few great athletes take it up--they are all taken by the NFL, NBA and other more socially acceptable sports.

If Ali was born today he'd be a NFL quarterback or wide receiver.

The idea that these big athletes can just pick and chose what sport they are gonna be a superstar in is absolute nonsense. The vast majority of sports require far more than just size and athletic ability, such as skill and years of dedication to that sport. Is baseball and NFL different? I assume millions of Americans play these sports regularly so success is only gonna go to the select few. Same with boxing, the best boxers aren’t the biggest or strongest, but the most skilled! Which generally means they’ve been fighting since they were kids. Also US football is not really played anywhere outside of the US. Rugby is far more popular worldwide. Rugby has absolutely no affect on the sport of boxing either

It is not the reason for the decline in US HWs, but it is regularly used as an excuse. The US still has far more pro boxers than any other country, and Is the most successful boxing nation, but the rest of the world has caught up, especially at HW

 

[defjaam]

It's a combination of several nuances and changes over the decades that influence boxers and that ultimately translates to what we see in the ring.
Change of equipment (the gloves became bigger and more padding), change of the referee's job (the ref interferes a lot more), change of teaching (e.g. inside fighting doesn't get taught that much anymore).

If you put an inside master like Roberto Duran in a time machine and let him fight today, how would the referee react to his tactics?

There's dozens of more points that you could add.
And that's why fantasy matchups like Jose Napoles vs. Terence Crawford, as fun as it is to discuss them, don't do nothing for me. It's almost like two different sports colliding.

 

[MRudi]

The idea that these big athletes can just pick and chose what sport they are gonna be a superstar in is absolute nonsense. The vast majority of sports require far more than just size and athletic ability, such as skill and years of dedication to that sport. Is baseball and NFL different? I assume millions of Americans play these sports regularly so success is only gonna go to the select few. Same with boxing, the best boxers aren’t the biggest or strongest, but the most skilled! Which generally means they’ve been fighting since they were kids. Also US football is not really played anywhere outside of the US. Rugby is far more popular worldwide. Rugby has absolutely no affect on the sport of boxing either

It is not the reason for the decline in US HWs, but it is regularly used as an excuse. The US still has far more pro boxers than any other country, and Is the most successful boxing nation, but the rest of the world has caught up, especially at HW

So why weights categories?
Why Haney cried over 1 kg of Garcia?
Well, the US Football isn't played outside USA, thats why UK dominates right now HW.
The modern boxers would kill the other eras with size.
If the more skilled meant the better, Tyson would be at prime at 60, not 20. Athlethic matters even more, thats why we say the athlets getting older, not getting better with age.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

So why weights categories?
Why Haney cried over 1 kg of Garcia?
Well, the US Football isn't played outside USA, thats why UK dominates right now HW.
The modern boxers would kill the other eras with size.
If the more skilled meant the better, Tyson would be at prime at 60, not 20. Athlethic matters even more, thats why we say the athlets getting older, not getting better with age.

US football is just your version of rugby, which is one of the most popular sports in the UK and the world (currently half a million registered players in Britain). So that argument doesn’t really work does it, it’s just an excuse

 

[Doctor Grudge]

A difference I notice when I watch very old fights is that boxers fight more calculated now. Guys really at it in the 60s and 70s, that's why it is quite entertaining.






The idea that boxing gotten worse is nonsense though. It just isn't as easy to market to where ever your demographic is then when you were growing up. You're going to say Japanese boxing got worse for example?

I don't know about this idea that all the great HWs left the sport due to money, boxing was never a mega popular sport for large athletes. Rocky Marcaino is hardly a large person, could probably find half the people in an Apple Bees that are bigger than him.

Boxing simply got more international, especially after the USSR fell. For one reason or another, Americans just are not a good at HW when at one point nearly every HW was American. That's really more of a promotional/domestic thing. Usyk isn't any "worse" than any of the boxing champions of the past, he just is from a region where the English speaking internet doesn't give a shit about.

For example, the average boxing fan knows nothing about cruiserweights or thinks they suck or something, yet most educated fans would say their golden age occurred a few years ago (as opposed to decades ago). It gets no press because those guys are from Eastern Europe, so it's a bigger deal over there then likely where ever you're from.

 

[MRudi]

A difference I notice when I watch very old fights is that boxers fight more calculated now. Guys really at it in the 60s and 70s, that's why it is quite entertaining.






The idea that boxing gotten worse is nonsense though. It just isn't as easy to market to where ever your demographic is then when you were growing up. You're going to say Japanese boxing got worse for example?

I don't know about this idea that all the great HWs left the sport due to money, boxing was never a mega popular sport for large athletes. Rocky Marcaino is hardly a large person, could probably find half the people in an Apple Bees that are bigger than him.

Boxing simply got more international, especially after the USSR fell. For one reason or another, Americans just are not a good at HW when at one point nearly every HW was American. That's really more of a promotional/domestic thing. Usyk isn't any "worse" than any of the boxing champions of the past, he just is from a region where the English speaking internet doesn't give a shit about.

For example, the average boxing fan knows nothing about cruiserweights or thinks they suck or something, yet most educated fans would say their golden age occurred a few years ago (as opposed to decades ago). It gets no press because those guys are from Eastern Europe, so it's a bigger deal over there then likely where ever you're from.

People were much smaller then. It's simple.

US football is just your version of rugby, which is one of the most popular sports in the UK and the world (currently half a million registered players in Britain). So that argument doesn’t really work does it, it’s just an excuse

Ok. Lets say NFL and NBA money is 10 in 10 point scale. What score would you give rubny?

 

[Mujeriego]

People were much smaller then.

Much?
They werent that much smaller.
I'm also 6'3 and never say shit like that.
Anytime I hear someone go "Well people were smaller back then", its always a guy who wouldve been exactly as tall as them.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

People were much smaller then. It's simple.

Ok. Lets say NFL and NBA money is 10 in 10 point scale. What score would you give rubny?

Lol Wtf is Rubny?

Professional rugby players earn more than the vast majority of boxers. That’s a fact! Your argument seems to be a coping mechanism. Your HWs have been shit for the last 25 years, and it’s got fuck all to do with the NFL

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Not sure what changed specifically, all fighters are brave, I just know fighters of yesterday were cut of something different, lived harder lives probably, and had deeper pools of talent to try and stand out in.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

People were much smaller then. It's simple.

Ok. Lets say NFL and NBA money is 10 in 10 point scale. What score would you give rubny?

What is "back then"? People were not smaller during the 60s and 70s in developed countries like America. If anything, fresh produce was more affordable.

The height of NBA players is the same as it was in the 1960s. It's a one inch difference except players were measured barefoot in the 1960s. Why weren't those NBA players going into boxing in the 1960s when the NBA wasn't paying millions yet?

Boxing has never been a "big mans sport". The marketing behind boxing and the heavyweight title just made it seem that way. If you think Joe Frazier was big by NFL and NBA standards in the 70s then you're way off. Joe Frazier is what...200 pounds not even ripped? Like 5'10?

In what world is Joe Frazier going to be in the NFL or NBA?

The fact is, the NFL and NBA have little to do with heavyweight boxing. Boxing is a vastly different sport from ball based sports. The idea that boxing is heavily poached by them at the heavier divisions is not well thought out.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

What is "back then"? People were not smaller during the 60s and 70s in developed countries like America. If anything, fresh produce was more affordable.

The height of NBA players is the same as it was in the 1960s. It's a one inch difference except players were measured barefoot in the 1960s. Why weren't those NBA players going into boxing in the 1960s when the NBA wasn't paying millions yet?

Boxing has never been a "big mans sport". The marketing behind boxing and the heavyweight title just made it seem that way. If you think Joe Frazier was big by NFL and NBA standards in the 70s then you're way off. Joe Frazier is what...200 pounds not even ripped? Like 5'10?

In what world is Joe Frazier going to be in the NFL or NBA?

The fact is, the NFL and NBA have little to do with heavyweight boxing. Boxing is a vastly different sport from ball based sports. The idea that boxing is heavily poached by them at the heavier divisions is not well thought out.

Not well thought out…? it’s one of the greatest American built in excuses we’ve ever come up with, we put some of our top scientists on it, and we are gonna be using it quite a bit more in the years to come, trust me

 

[Fluffernutter]

Comparing boxers from the 1950s and today is a moot point.

1950s: same day weigh ins
Today: day before weigh ins

Back then, a welterweight was a welterweight in the ring.

Today, a welterweight is a super middle weight in the ring.

 

[Fluffernutter]

HW boxing is the only pro sport that has declined over the last 50 years... too few great athletes take it up--they are all taken by the NFL, NBA and other more socially acceptable sports.

If Ali was born today he'd be a NFL quarterback or wide receiver.

The guy was smart, witty, and good looking.

I'd say he became a very successful white collar business guy if he was born during contemporary times.

Heck, he probably would have a podcast

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Ali is built nothing like a football player, he'd have no chance at being in the NFL lmao. What's next, George Foreman would be a small forward? Saying Ali would be an NFL wideout basically going off nothing other than he is a bit tall is ridiculous. How high does Ali jump? How fast can he sprint? How much can he lift? it's literally just a baseless assumption on his height and that he is a good athlete, as if all athletics require the same attributes.


Those guys were fighters because they liked fighting and were good at it. Not because they "elite athletes that decided to do boxing since it paid the best". That isn't how sports works, it's not something you exactly send a job application for showcasing your credentials.



Give me this mythical time when the NFL was being poached by boxing. It doesn't make any sense at all. Most of the promoters for heavyweight boxing were based in America, hence nearly all of the talent were exclusively American for a long period of time. It has nothing to do with the NFL or NBA seducing talent. Most heavyweights from those eras were not big enough to be in the NFL or NBA.

If you're still skeptical then ask the reverse, during the 60s and 70s (or even later), why weren't there non-Americans fighting for the HW title? Were they getting poached by playing footie before it was even properly commercialized?



Imagine this alternate world where Jerry Quarry (who is sub 6 foot and 200 pounds also) is a wideout or some shit. Come on....

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Ali is built nothing like a football player, he'd have no chance at being in the NFL lmao. What's next, George Foreman would be a small forward? Saying Ali would be an NFL wideout basically going off nothing other than he is a bit tall is ridiculous. How high does Ali jump? How fast can he sprint? How much can he lift? it's literally just a baseless assumption on his height and that he is a good athlete, as if all athletics require the same attributes.

Those guys were fighters because they liked fighting and were good at it. Not because they "elite athletes that decided to do boxing since it paid the best". That isn't how sports works, it's not something you exactly send a job application for showcasing your credentials.

Give me this mythical time when the NFL was being poached by boxing. It doesn't make any sense at all. Most of the promoters for heavyweight boxing were based in America, hence nearly all of the talent were exclusively American for a long period of time. It has nothing to do with the NFL or NBA seducing talent. Most heavyweights from those eras were not big enough to be in the NFL or NBA.

If you're still skeptical then ask the reverse, during the 60s and 70s (or even later), why weren't there non-Americans fighting for the HW title? Were they getting poached by playing footie before it was even properly commercialized?

Imagine this alternate world where Jerry Quarry (who is sub 6 foot and 200 pounds also) is a wideout or some shit. Come on....

Ali is built nothing like a football player? Well, that would depend on the position. Wouldn't it? We've had guys as short as 5'1 and 140ish lbs. Look at how small the NFL's kickers tend to be. They're beanpoles. Ali was athletic and won Olympic gold in a sport that's arguably the most athletically demanding of any. Foreman? Also an Olympic gold medalist.

Combine numbers aren't worth much beyond scouting. There've been plenty of NFL greats that put up shit numbers and players with very impressive stats that couldn't play the game worth a damn. There's no way to truly know whether Ali's athletic attributes were sport-specific to boxing or generally applicable elsewhere since he only ever boxed.

As for the major North American sporting orgs taking talent from combat sports, I'm sure it's happened to some degree. Especially in the higher weight classes of boxing & MMA. Realize that the NBA used to draft some of its players directly out of high school. They didn't wait for their collegiate careers to even start much less conclude. That's how aggressive their scouting process was. Now there's a 1 year waiting period.