When champs or top contenders from other orgs come to the UFC

[Hellowhosthat]

Depends where they're from. At the moment if there was a hypothetical merge with Bellator I would say a top 5 opponent would be reasonable but probably not an immediate shot. If it was a merge with PFL then probably top 15 for the season winners.

I would think everyone else would have to work their way up like everyone else. Gamrot was a double champion in one of the bigger non UFC promotions in KSW and has to start outside the rankings.

 

[Conor_Is_Overrated]

They should be tested by matching them up with Top10 fighters. Something like Gaethje's or Chandler's debuts... and then go from there.

 

[Conor_Is_Overrated]

What might be interesting though, some MEGA-events with cross-promotion fights headlined by a MEGA champion vs champion headliner.

Of course, this will never happen.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

Anderson was an interesting case in that after the Leben fight, the UFC held a fan poll asking who his next opponent should be. The overwhelming reaction was Franklin. Not sure the UFC has done that with any other title fight.

Confirmed. UFC fans want to see a death in the Octagon...

 

[BFoe]

There are very few "hard and fast" rules in matchmaking.

You need to look at the specifics - who is the fighter, which org they come from, what is the situation of their weight class at the time they move in, etc - and decide on a case by case, that's the only thing that makes sense.

I generally agree with this. But should there be some general standard, do you think? Alvarez and Chandler both got pretty highly ranked opponents in high profile fights. But when Will Brooks came over as Bellator champ, he got a meh booking with Ross Pearson.
Or what about David Branch? He was a WSOF simultaneous champ-champ, and they booked him against Krszysztof Jotko lol.
Should Branch and Brooks have gotten better bookings?

 

[Clark Rogers]

imo it is situational, not concrete.

I like how when UFC buys another org, they have a tendency to match that org's champs with theirs.

when it is just a fighter coming in from another org on his own, I think it largely depends on the landscape of the weight class. if there is a solid line of UFC guys with legit claims, you can't overlook them and put the new guy ahead.

in those situations I think any #1 contender that is already in line should get his, and the new guy should fight #'s 2-3 for the next in line.

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

I generally agree with this. But should there be some general standard, do you think? Alvarez and Chandler both got pretty highly ranked opponents in high profile fights. But when Will Brooks came over as Bellator champ, he got a meh booking with Ross Pearson.
Or what about David Branch? He was a WSOF simultaneous champ-champ, and they booked him against Krszysztof Jotko lol.
Should Branch and Brooks have gotten better bookings?

Considering how well those two did in the UFC, as well as other fighters mentioned in the OP, I'd say they got pretty sensible bookings.

Sorry but I don't agree that there should be any general standards. If the other orgs were closer to the UFC in size and talent pool (the way Pride or Stikeforce were) and if they all adopted the same rules (USADA, weight-cutting, etc) then maybe it would make more sense but at the moment there are just too many variables so you need to look case by case.

Also, why do you care so much about this? Do you really think guys like Branch, Brooks, Lombard & co would become UFC champs with different matchmaking?

 

[careto]

Depends where they're from. At the moment if there was a hypothetical merge with Bellator I would say a top 5 opponent would be reasonable but probably not an immediate shot. If it was a merge with PFL then probably top 15 for the season winners.

I would think everyone else would have to work their way up like everyone else. Gamrot was a double champion in one of the bigger non UFC promotions in KSW and has to start outside the rankings.

Man, I had big expectations from Gamrot and he was thrown to the wolves. I wouldnt rank Gamrot as high as Chandler but I thought Gamrot deserved a fight against a top 15 figher, someone like Dariush, Dober, Makachev, Lee, or Tsakuyan. I'm still upset that he was thrown out there against a silent killer who just shot his game down.

 

[careto]

Good call. Completely forgot about Nemkov, one of the hottest names outside the UFC right now. I think he’d squash Jan.

Also with Khabib retired Pitbull would also be a legit contender at LW... he One-Tapped Chandler like nothing.

Pitbull is a rather small FW, at least small compared to Max or Ortega, i dont think he would fare very well against the UFC's LW division. He would however, be a contender (possibly top 3-5) in the UFC FW division, IMO.

 

[ferrisjso]

Really depends who it is and the state of the division they are entering.

 

[Deleted member 405583]

What do they need to do to get a title shot, in your opinion?
Clearly, champs from small, regional orgs don’t deserve immediate title shots, but what about champs from more well known orgs like Bellator, WSOF/PFL, RIZIN, or ONE? Should champs be given immediate title shots, or work their way up? How many Top 10 wins does a guy like Michael Chandler need to get a title shot? Or Jiri Prochazka?

This is something that the UFC has been very inconsistent about. For those who don’t mind wordy OP’s, let’s look at some of the champs and top contenders from other orgs and how they were booked:
PRIDE (PRIDE LW champ Takanori Gomi and HW champ Fedor Emelianenko did not sign with the UFC):

• Simultaneous champ-champ Dan Henderson got immediate title unification matches against Anderson Silva and Rampage Jackson, respectively.
• Top contender Minotauro Nogueira was booked against Heath Herring, who had come over from PRIDE and gone 1-1 in the UFC at that time. This booking generated some criticism. https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2007/05/big-nog-to-debut-vs-heath-herring-at-ufc-73 After winning that fight, Nog’s next fight was for the UFC Interim Belt.
• Top contender Mirko Cro Cop came to the UFC on a 4-fight win streak, having just won the PRIDE Openweight Grand Prix. He was somewhat perplexingly booked against Eddie Sanchez, who was 6-0 in MMA at the time, and 1-0 in the UFC. After beating Sanchez, Mirko was booked in a title eliminator against Gabriel Gonzaga (which Mirko lost. But we don’t talk about that).

STRIKEFORCE:

• HW Champ Overeem was not given an immediate TS, but instead was booked against Brock Lesnar, who had lost the title in his last fight to Cain Velasquez. After dismantling Lesnar, Overeem was given a TS against Junior Dos Santos—the fight ended up not happening after a failed PED test from Overeem.
• LHW Champ Hendo was booked against Shogun Rua, who was Top 5 at the time and 2 fights removed from losing his LHW title. After winning this, Hendo was next booked against #6 ranked Machida, a fight which he lost.
• Strikeforce MW champ Luke Rockhold was booked against TRT Vitor, who had returned to middleweight in his last bout and beaten Bisping. Vitor was ranked #2 (Rockhold lost the fight).
• WW champ Nick Diaz was booked against GSP for the title initially, but skipped a press conference Diaz Style, causing Dana White to have a small aneurysm and pull him from the TS. He fought BJ Penn instead.
• LW champ Gilbert Melendez got an immediate TS against Bendo.
• Women’s FW: N/A (the UFC did not absorb this division).
• Women’s BW: Ronda Rousey was promoted to UFC champ similarly to how Cruz and Aldo were after UFC absorbed their divisions.

BELLATOR:

• LW Champ Eddie Alvarez was booked against #6 ranked Cowboy Cerrone.
• MW champ (and AFC MW champ) Hector Lombard was booked against Brian Stann, who was ranked around #10 at the time. Stann pulled out with injury, and Lombard fought #6 ranked Tim Boetsch (Lombard lost an underwhelming split decision).

MISC:

• Anderson Silva came over as Cage Rage MW champ and was booked in a title eliminator against Leben. After destroying him, Silva fought for the title.
• Former SF MW champ Jacare was booked against Costa Phillipou, who was ranked #5 at the time (Costa pulled out due to injury and Jacare fought Camozzi instead).
• RIZIN LHW champ Jiri Prochazka was booked against #7 Volkan Oezdemir. After winning that fight, he was booked against #3 ranked Dominick Reyes.
• WSOF LW champ Justin Gaethje was booked against Michael Johnson, who had lost 3 of his previous 4 fights and was ranked #6.

How do we feel about these bookings, and how the UFC treats champs and top contenders from other orgs?

1) gomi did sign with the ufc and iirc is the only person to have been tapped out by BOTH Diaz brothers.
2) forgot about Jake shields coming in against GSP
3) The fact that either put bull brother hasn't gotten a shot in the octagon by now is a criminal level oversight by the ufc

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Man, I had big expectations from Gamrot and he was thrown to the wolves. I wouldnt rank Gamrot as high as Chandler but I thought Gamrot deserved a fight against a top 15 figher, someone like Dariush, Dober, Makachev, Lee, or Tsakuyan. I'm still upset that he was thrown out there against a silent killer who just shot his game down.

He'll still be okay I think, same with Mason Jones.

My dream and nightmare at the same time is that those two get booked against each other next.

 

[careto]

I generally dont agree with Dustin Poirier. He think that because he has fought in the UFC all his life that Chandler should also start from the very bottom like he did. He doesnt want to fight him next because he think he should prove himself in the UFC a little more before getting a title fight. If Chandler was a regional guy going into the UFC then I would agree but Chandler is a legitimate top LW, so he should be matched accordingly.

I think Dustin is upset at Chandler because when Dustin was complaining about fighter pay before accepting another top contender fight, Chandler accepted less money to fight a top contender and was even the "reserve" fighter in the Khabib vs Gaethje fight, which if anyone should have gotten that chance, it should have been Dustin.

 

[careto]

He'll still be okay I think, same with Mason Jones.

My dream and nightmare at the same time is that those two get booked against each other next.

I wish Gamrot would have gotten the Mason Jones treatment, you could see the UFC gave Mason a winnable match up; they wanted him to win in an exciting fashion. A Jones vs Gamrot would be a very unfair fight for Mason Jones, he is definitely not ready for Gamrot's grappling and experience. I hope Mason gets someone like Austin Hubbard, Lando Vannata, or Luis Pena kind of fight to rebound. IDK who Gamort would end up facing but I would hate to see him against a Frevola or Roosevelt Roberts kind of fight.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I wish Gamrot would have gotten the Mason Jones treatment, you could see the UFC gave Mason a winnable match up; they wanted him to win in an exciting fashion. A Jones vs Gamrot would be a very unfair fight for Mason Jones, he is definitely not ready for Gamrot's grappling and experience. I hope Mason gets someone like Austin Hubbard, Lando Vannata, or Luis Pena kind of fight to rebound. IDK who Gamort would end up facing but I would hate to see him against a Frevola or Roosevelt Roberts kind of fight.

Mason Vs Hubbard would make sense, that's a matchup for him that I had in mind, a tough dude who will hang in there with him and make him work, but a fight he should win.

I'd maybe like to see someone like Scott Holtzman for Gamrot, he shouldn't be moved too far back imo.

 

[GrantB13]

There aren't many orgs to go around right now at a high level, so these days I'd say top 5-10 and then title eliminator if they prove their worth in that fight. Chandler right now should probably get an eliminator fight.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Just a thought, but they do seem to rate Rizin champs highly. They gave Prochazka the #6 LHW in his first fight and they're giving Kape the #5 Flyweight for his debut.

 

[Ares Black]

What do they need to do to get a title shot, in your opinion?
Clearly, champs from small, regional orgs don’t deserve immediate title shots, but what about champs from more well known orgs like Bellator, WSOF/PFL, RIZIN, or ONE? Should champs be given immediate title shots, or work their way up? How many Top 10 wins does a guy like Michael Chandler need to get a title shot? Or Jiri Prochazka?

This is something that the UFC has been very inconsistent about. For those who don’t mind wordy OP’s, let’s look at some of the champs and top contenders from other orgs and how they were booked:
PRIDE (PRIDE LW champ Takanori Gomi and HW champ Fedor Emelianenko did not sign with the UFC):

• Simultaneous champ-champ Dan Henderson got immediate title unification matches against Anderson Silva and Rampage Jackson, respectively.
• Top contender Minotauro Nogueira was booked against Heath Herring, who had come over from PRIDE and gone 1-1 in the UFC at that time. This booking generated some criticism. https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2007/05/big-nog-to-debut-vs-heath-herring-at-ufc-73 After winning that fight, Nog’s next fight was for the UFC Interim Belt.
• Top contender Mirko Cro Cop came to the UFC on a 4-fight win streak, having just won the PRIDE Openweight Grand Prix. He was somewhat perplexingly booked against Eddie Sanchez, who was 6-0 in MMA at the time, and 1-0 in the UFC. After beating Sanchez, Mirko was booked in a title eliminator against Gabriel Gonzaga (which Mirko lost. But we don’t talk about that).

STRIKEFORCE:

• HW Champ Overeem was not given an immediate TS, but instead was booked against Brock Lesnar, who had lost the title in his last fight to Cain Velasquez. After dismantling Lesnar, Overeem was given a TS against Junior Dos Santos—the fight ended up not happening after a failed PED test from Overeem.
• LHW Champ Hendo was booked against Shogun Rua, who was Top 5 at the time and 2 fights removed from losing his LHW title. After winning this, Hendo was next booked against #6 ranked Machida, a fight which he lost.
• Strikeforce MW champ Luke Rockhold was booked against TRT Vitor, who had returned to middleweight in his last bout and beaten Bisping. Vitor was ranked #2 (Rockhold lost the fight).
• WW champ Nick Diaz was booked against GSP for the title initially, but skipped a press conference Diaz Style, causing Dana White to have a small aneurysm and pull him from the TS. He fought BJ Penn instead.
• LW champ Gilbert Melendez got an immediate TS against Bendo.
• Women’s FW: N/A (the UFC did not absorb this division).
• Women’s BW: Ronda Rousey was promoted to UFC champ similarly to how Cruz and Aldo were after UFC absorbed their divisions.

BELLATOR:

• LW Champ Eddie Alvarez was booked against #6 ranked Cowboy Cerrone.
• MW champ (and AFC MW champ) Hector Lombard was booked against Brian Stann, who was ranked around #10 at the time. Stann pulled out with injury, and Lombard fought #6 ranked Tim Boetsch (Lombard lost an underwhelming split decision).

MISC:

• Anderson Silva came over as Cage Rage MW champ and was booked in a title eliminator against Leben. After destroying him, Silva fought for the title.
• Former SF MW champ Jacare was booked against Costa Phillipou, who was ranked #5 at the time (Costa pulled out due to injury and Jacare fought Camozzi instead).
• RIZIN LHW champ Jiri Prochazka was booked against #7 Volkan Oezdemir. After winning that fight, he was booked against #3 ranked Dominick Reyes.
• WSOF LW champ Justin Gaethje was booked against Michael Johnson, who had lost 3 of his previous 4 fights and was ranked #6.

How do we feel about these bookings, and how the UFC treats champs and top contenders from other orgs?

I voted immediate title eliminator, but that really depends on the stature of the fighter in question, and in what promotion he or she is champion.

 

[joeson]

@joeson Our talk about Chandler made me curious, so I started this thread to see how everyone else feels.

Good thread. Most seem to agree, big signings should be given big opportunities but not at the cost of the top contenders. “In the mix” as Dana would say. How quickly they should be given a TS depends on who they fight, how they perform, and how deep the division is. Obviously, a thin division would warrant a much quicker TS but a deeper one would have a longer line of top contenders.

It's also not realistic to expect a champion from another top org to start at the bottom and work their way up. It’s unfair to the fighter, who is probably a former champion or top contender and the UFC who just spent a lot of money on this one signing and would want to make big fights to monetize their investment. It also discourages future signings if a champion is not even given a top 10 opportunity.

Chandler had an impressive debut. In a thinner division, like women's 125 or 135, a TS may even be warranted right away but men's 155 is stacked, and "in the mix" means fighting a couple of top guys. If Khabib doesn't retire, there may be a case of giving Chandler a shot sooner because Khabib has beaten almost all of the top contenders already and they probably need new contenders. If Khabib does retire as expected, a pseudo tournament is warranted with Chandler as one of four. The reason I say "pseudo tournament" is they probably need to give Poirier a title shot right away or he'll end up rematching McGregor or fighting Diaz. Given Poirier's refusal to fight Chandler because he feels he hasn't earned it and the reasons we have already spoken about, it just makes sense to give Olievera – who Poirier respects – a title shot and have Gaethje and Chandler battle it out for the next shot. In effect, it is the same tournament but isn't labeled as such because Porier would not participate.

 

[BFoe]

Considering how well those two did in the UFC, as well as other fighters mentioned in the OP, I'd say they got pretty sensible bookings.

Sorry but I don't agree that there should be any general standards. If the other orgs were closer to the UFC in size and talent pool (the way Pride or Stikeforce were) and if they all adopted the same rules (USADA, weight-cutting, etc) then maybe it would make more sense but at the moment there are just too many variables so you need to look case by case.

Also, why do you care so much about this? Do you really think guys like Branch, Brooks, Lombard & co would become UFC champs with different matchmaking?

Of course I don’t. I don’t care about this any more than I care about anything else in MMA—how fighters are ranked, who they should fight next, etc are pretty typical Sherdog topics.

The reason for the thread is that earlier, in another thread, I was discussing Michael Chandler with somebody. This poster thought Chandler’s Bellator fights should have no bearing at all on his booking, and he should go to the back of the line like anyone else. I disagreed.
Likewise, awhile back after Jiri beat Volkan, I saw ppl calling for him to fight Rakic or Johnnie Walker, which I also disagreed with. I saw no reason for him to fight anyone lower ranked, due to his win streak and RIZIN LHW title. So I figured I’d make a thread to see how Sherdoggers felt in general about this. Seemed like a relevant topic.