What WERE Helio's changes to JJJ?

[Sherdog_Mutt]

Interesting thread guys. I'm no BJJ history buff so I'm not going to jump in regarding the thread topic.

All I want to say is that Carlinhos (Carlos Gracie Jr., founder of Gracie Barra) is not the son of Carlson Gracie (they are half-brothers). He's the son of Carlos Gracie Sr. and his 3rd wife Layr.

http://www.bjj.org/family.html

 

[knoxpk]

This IS a great thread. But still and all Im of the opinion that BJJ is basically another style wether Judo or Jujutsu. The differences are not in the techniques themselves just the methodology and/or application.

Its really no different than someone taking "INSERT STYLE HERE" and focusing one a particualr series or aspect of that style and making it work VERY well!

It wouldnt/shouldnt be another style at most a subsystem of another style.
Greco roman vs Freestyle vs Folkstyle.

Helio learned the Judo/Jujutsu techniques (closed conservative guard) and worked them much more so than the other variations of the guard that already existed(or so I have read thus far if the info is accurate)...

To say he changed it might not be correct, to change the way it was played might be more true!

or am I just way off here?

 

[jjmuaythaiguy]

fozzit, stephensharp, knox: thanks for some great posts. Sorry if it's taking me a while to digest everything.

So in summary, the notion that Helio "improved" the jiu jitsu that he was taught by Carlos and Maeda is essentially true, and that his improvements really were based on the notion that he was of slight build and needed to ensure that his technique was effective by using leverage and by focusing on even the smallest details, INSTEAD of just muscling/forcing his way with the moves.

Also, since today's modern BJJ (as seen in today's numerous MMA/BJJ competitions, which inherently have rules and restrictions) is less applicable with the old-school fighting of Helio's era (i.e. streetfighting, or more realistically old-school Brazilian underground NHB/Vale Tudo, the most recent modern example of which would be early UFC), then Helio's notion that today's BJJ is not the BJJ that HE developed and teaches, is in fact true.

So despite the fact that advances in competition BJJ (e.g. open guard) have really made "modern" BJJ quite complex and arguably more fun to watch and learn, it would be wise for any student to take Helio's fundamental techniques (for example, straight out of his "Gracie Jiu Jitsu Master Text") and learn them like the back of their hands.

In the end, just as judo experienced the GREAT WATER DOWN due to WW2 and competition rules, so then is BJJ experiencing the same thing. Unless you're training SOLELY for competition, you're really missing out on the HEART of BJJ/GJJ if you DON'T learn Helio's GJJ.

Is that all correct?

Now I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but for guys like jjmuaythaiguy and others who see Helio's GJJ regularly and also train in other JJJ/BJJ/Judo/grappling, do you have any specific examples to help make this diatribe more concrete?

e.g. the kneeling guard pass I described earlier...Helio, Rorion, and his sons continue to teach it, but whether you're doing sport BJJ or not, or gi vs. no-gi, many would argue that it's too old-fashioned and not combat-applicable...what do you all think? or am I just talking in circles?

I try to be open minded.

I am being taught by a black belt in Kodokan Judo for takedowns only. Relson teaches me everything for bjj. I also got a D1 Wrestler teaching me no gi take downs. Since each style of grappling has its uses I am trying to learn the best of all the arts. I train at least six times a week. Gi, no gi, submission wrestling, on mats, on grass plus also instruct muay thai classes.

Still I am learning the grappling game.

Hell yeah I compete gi and no gi, winning NAGA, Kauai Grappling Challenge, placing in top 3 in others.

I still have no idea what the differences are even though I train them all, basically. I know people want answers and like I said before you would have to have Master Maeda and Master Gracie in the same room at the same time and ask them together. For more detailed answers you would have to be the best detective and/ or researcher going for a PH.D with a dissertation project that would say something to the effect of

"A study of Helio Gracie's Jiu Jitsu techinques: A study of the specific differences between Gracie Jiu Jitsu as taught by Helio Gracie verses tradional judo as taught by Jigoro Kano".

Even with a dissertation you would have to disect Master Kano's history and that of Master Maeda. I tend to believe in hard truth facts by observing, researching, practicing and learning.

Last night, at the judo academy, I got to watch the #5 in the world rank judoka and possible alternate for the Olympics practice his throws. It was awesome. I also trained with a black belt who showed me some new techiques for my body type that I have never worked on before.

Before that I was at the Relson Gracie Main Academy rolling with a purple, (tapped him with a Americana), senior blue 4 stripe (tapped him with, footlock, Ezekial choke) and then practiced my no gi game and tapping the same blue with a kimura and a americana.

Truth be told I am still learning every single moment as I am grappling in whatever style ini gi and no gi. But as to the question as to what the changes that Helio made to jjj to make it gjj, I have no idea, none what so ever. I can not specifically say with any degree of certainty or provide any conclusive example as to the difference.

All I know is that I have fun and thank God I train with Relson Gracie. Even though I am almost 40, he is like a father to me, I swear.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

The whole "improved the defensive aspects" is so vague that that I thought you were trying to imply that. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But again, what defensive aspects did he improve? Are there no concrete examples? That quote tells us nothing..

I'm with you, bro...
Although admittedly it might be difficult, unless we hear from someone well trained in BJJ and JJJ, to find concrete examples.
One of the posters earlier mentioned that there are too many detailed examples to mention. It would be great if we could just hear of a couple of pretty fundamental, concrete examples. Again, in the name of learning, and not to knock Helio, or praise Maeda/Kano/etc. more...

It sounds like the "defensive aspects" that are referred to are the fact that Helio's GJJ really revolves around patience, no time limits, maximizing the time you have the opponent in closed guard and pulled in tight to prevent striking, etc.

Or, perhaps Helio's GJJ really has had such a widespread influence on ALL of our BJJ training, that we have just taken for granted that what we've been taught (for example, with the fundamental submission holds like armbars/triangle/RNC) is already WAY more detailed than otherwsie would've been taught to us by Japanese jujutsu instructors.

 

[Shadowdean]

Can this thread be made sticky and forced reading for all sherdoggers? Its perhaps the best thing I have read here, ever.

 

[stephensharp]

Can this thread be made sticky and forced reading for all sherdoggers? Its perhaps the best thing I have read here, ever.

I'd have loved that, as I've referrenced points from it in other discussions regarding the history of BJJ, most specifically someone arguing that Helio, not Carlos, Sr., "invented" the art and also moves that are "purely BJJ inventions".

If anyone has some Kosen Judo stuff (i.e.- stuff from the tapes) they could upload, I would be very greatful. This was a fantastic discussion, and I apologize for disapearing from it for so long. If anyone would like to bring something new to the table, I'd love to discuss/debate it.

 

[knoxpk]

Ditto the sticky notion here!!!!!

Problem is we went around and around in circles without ever coming to a conclusion.


Having to draw my own based on the wonderful posts from all invloved I am going to conclude that Helios version of GJJ is no more than Judo/Jujitsu that was learned from Maeda.
Of course it is of MY humble and not well read opinion that Helio worked the bottom portion of his game MUCh more than the rest of the positions...possibly due to size.
hence we see a very strong and patient closed guard game.

But a unique style? eh not really, but more a unique approach to practicing and executing a pre-exisiting style. Much like what Greco Roman wrestling is to Freestyle wrestling.

 

[Caddock]

Food for thought:

I have a book called "The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" by Hancock and Higashi. First published in 1905. The version I have is a reprint without the final 26 pages 'fatal blows and kuatsu resusitation.
This book has no names, everything is Trick no5 etc. It clearly depicts knee on belly, sweeps of mounted opponents, knee and elbow/shrimping escapes, guillitine chokes, wristlock, toehold, of course tons of throws and knee/elbow locks and in at least one instance: pulling guard described as "throwing your legs around his waist, with your feet crossed over his buttocks..." granted it isn't the complete guide to the guard but the move is there in 1905.

 

[Old Man]

http://bjj.org/rma-faq.html

 

[Bubble Boy]

Most accounts put Maeda in Brazil around 1914...

The Kodokan was founded in 1882.


Maeda was born in in 1878. He studied Tenshin Jiu-Jitsu as a child. He moved to Tokyo when he was about 18 and began practicing Judo.There's a record of him entering the Kodokan in 1897.

Maeda went to Brazil some 17 years after starting his training in Kodokan Judo.

In his own autobiography Maeda states that he took Kodokan judo techniques and specifically targeted them towards exploiting what he thought were the holes in the sports of wrestling and boxing.

Maeda credits Kodokan Judo in his autobiography but emphaisizes that he was streamlining the techniques to best suit his endevours into the world of challenge matches.

Maeda was 5' 5" and 145 lbs.

I have some clips of Kosen Judo that I'll link to shortly. You guys want the old Kosen guys pulling guard or what? I'll link to the clips.

 

[mikeffd]

I also wonder what the jiu jitsu Helio was doing looked like. He couldn't have had many moves from guard besides some collar chokes. Obviously he didn't have the Kimura until he fought the man.. and the triangle and Armbar from guard were 'developed' after the 60's.

Everyone says he developed jiujitsu to use more leverage. I wonder what techniques he's referring to. Butterfly and scissor sweeps?

 

[JustSomeGuy]

In his own autobiography Maeda states that he took Kodokan judo techniques and specifically targeted them towards exploiting what he thought were the holes in the sports of wrestling and boxing.

That's really interesting info, because that's essentially what the Gracie's claimed they did after studying with him.

Also, someone mentioned that it might just be Helio's style of JJ. That's essentially what every old type of Japanese Jujutsu is/was. A person or family's interpretation of a list of techiniques that were passed down with each generation. Gracie is no different. They just have their own interpretation of Maeda's interpretation of Kano's Judo. Which was a compliation of other people's jujutsu styles including Tenshin shinyo ryu jujutsu and various other styles which can probably be traced back to some form of Chinese Chin Na, which is a subsection of Ch'uan Fa which was reportedly taught to some Shaolin monks by a travelling Indian.

See what I am getting at? It doesn't really matter where it all started, it's the evolution that is important. The best thing Helio ever did in my opinion was bringing the art to America. Now we've taken it and are taking it to the next level. Look at Bravo and Lister to name a couple. That's just 12-13 years since it first appeared here. In ten more years there will be so many cool evolutions of BJJ that Royce's matches in UFC I will look like basic history lessons.

 

[eljamaiquino]

TTT for kosen clips...