What WERE Helio's changes to JJJ?

[triso]

Man this just re-enforces my opinion that Judo is/was badass.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

I appreciate all the great answers/insight, guys...

I'm not a Gracie hater. Like everyone here, I'm just trying to learn as much about grappling because I love it so much but still consider myself a beginner.

We just hear so much about "Gracie" jiu jitsu vs. "modern" BJJ, self-defense vs. sport, judo vs. jiu-jitsu, etc. And whether you buy into the Helio hype/reputation or not, we all know about how Helio was the small Gracie with breathing problems who "revolutionized" (for lack of a better term) jiu jitsu. He then passed on his "improved" jiu jitsu to his sons (Rickson, Royce, Royler, etc.), who are arguably legends in their own right.

So what I'm hearing is this: Helio's "Gracie jiu jitsu" may merely have been a rebirth of pre-war/Kosen judo, either by his purposeful return to techniques removed by Japanese judoka of his era, or by his own experimentation/discovery by his purposeful return to ground-focused fighting and increased mat time (literally).

We've all heard how Helio also focused more on leverage and refining the technique in performing certain moves (I agree that sounds VERY vague), to help smaller guys fight and defeat larger guys. That desire to drill the details of a technique over and over again purely for improving fighting ability (not for sport) is important. As such, many have argued that competitive sport jiu jitsu (with weight divisions, time limits, points/advantages, etc.) has watered down Helio's GJJ. And as a few of you have brought up, it is exactly these "rules" of competition (in Judo and BJJ, for instance) that drive how the ART and its details survive (or die).

I guess I just need to learn the details of Helio's GJJ, to fully appreciate its effectiveness in non-competition BJJ, and also learn more modern BJJ, to learn the newer techniques that are more applicable to everyday competition-focused BJJ.

But my next question is this: in YOUR opinion, which of Helio's GJJ techniques (that Helio would argue as being "perfect") do YOU think are less effective TODAY, based on what has developed in BJJ since Helio's era?

 

[blanko]

The guys on the Kosen Judo tapes used Spider Gaurd, De la Riva, etc without having been to Brazil so that bears out my theory that its simply the time on the ground that stimulates the refinements.

staying in a position for a few seconds and actually fighting from that position are two different things. Remember, in the early days of Sport BJJ you got points for getting to someone's 1/2 guard. They thought that the 1/2 guard was a "weak position" until Gordo came along. (Which is sort of true when you think it in a VTD sense)

Cultures all over the world develop a double leg takedown.

Do cultures all over the world have judo throws? Do cultures all over the world have Fencing lunges? Sure there are pictures of elbows and kneews in karate and other styles but does karate have the devolped clinch game like muay thai? No. The name of the game is details and philosophy.

Even members of the family themselves say that if any changes were made, it was Carlos responsible, not Helio. No-one can give a definite answer because he made NO definite changes IMO.

"...but it was my uncle Helio, Who made great improvements in the desensive aspects of ... -Carlos Gracie Jr. "grappling Masters", Pg 32.

If you have a chance you should pick up Grappling Masters where there is an in debth interview with Carlinos (carlson's son NOT Heilo's which is important because 1) he is a big figure in bjj and does not need helio's approval (i.e president of IBJJF) AND 2) if it was not true why would he give props to Helio instead of his own father?).

But my next question is this: in YOUR opinion, which of Helio's GJJ techniques (that Helio would argue as being "perfect") do YOU think are less effective TODAY, based on what has developed in BJJ since Helio's era?

what's the situation? Sport BJJ? Modern MMA or old school VTD? It depends on the situation. Helio's jiu jitsu (the older generation's bjj including carlsion gracie sr. , Rickson, Royce) is best suited for VTD with no time limits.

All this being said, BJJ is basically a rebirth of Fushin Ryu(sp) jiu jitsu. Kano bribed/stole their ground game after his students got spanked and then when he saw his students fight like Fushin Ryu guys he started to put in rules so they will follow "his jiu-jitsu". Maeda, who believed in the effective ness of the Fushin Ryu style of fighting told the gracies that he taught JIU-JITSU. It was Maedo and NOT the Gracies who named it JIU-JITSU. I really see no reason why people should cry about "what did so and so "invent"??". What specific technique did Kano invent? Randori???? Common sense dictatest that the Fushin Ryu guys sparred. I mean what's Randori other than sparring? Every style does it. Boxing, western wrestling, ethic wrestling such as korean Ssirum... I mean if you want to nitpick it can never end.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

I mean if you want to nitpick it can never end.

I'm not trying to nitpick, dude. I'm just trying to learn and get people's opinions. If you're not into it, there are other threads for you to contribute to.

Here's an example. I trained at one school where the "basic" guard pass for beginners was the standard kneeling guard pass (as taught in Renzo and Royler's book)...you know, the one where you hold down your opponent's bicep with one arm, underhook with the other, stack, etc.

I've also trained at a school where that pass is considered inferior, since you leave your inside arm at HIGH RISK for getting trapped and ultimately getting you triangled.

I agree that some techniques are better for competition, others for self-defense, some for gi, some for no-gi. So, yes, it depends on what your objectives are for training.

I just want to know how other people feel about Helio's GJJ vs. more modern BJJ. The above guard-pass dilemma is just one example.

 

[jjmuaythaiguy]

staying in a position for a few seconds and actually fighting from that position are two different things. Remember, in the early days of Sport BJJ you got points for getting to someone's 1/2 guard. They thought that the 1/2 guard was a "weak position" until Gordo came along. (Which is sort of true when you think it in a VTD sense)



Do cultures all over the world have judo throws? Do cultures all over the world have Fencing lunges? Sure there are pictures of elbows and kneews in karate and other styles but does karate have the devolped clinch game like muay thai? No. The name of the game is details and philosophy.



"...but it was my uncle Helio, Who made great improvements in the desensive aspects of ... -Carlos Gracie Jr. "grappling Masters", Pg 32.

If you have a chance you should pick up Grappling Masters where there is an in debth interview with Carlinos (carlson's son NOT Heilo's which is important because 1) he is a big figure in bjj and does not need helio's approval (i.e president of IBJJF) AND 2) if it was not true why would he give props to Helio instead of his own father?).



what's the situation? Sport BJJ? Modern MMA or old school VTD? It depends on the situation. Helio's jiu jitsu (the older generation's bjj including carlsion gracie sr. , Rickson, Royce) is best suited for VTD with no time limits.

All this being said, BJJ is basically a rebirth of Fushin Ryu(sp) jiu jitsu. Kano bribed/stole their ground game after his students got spanked and then when he saw his students fight like Fushin Ryu guys he started to put in rules so they will follow "his jiu-jitsu". Maeda, who believed in the effective ness of the Fushin Ryu style of fighting told the gracies that he taught JIU-JITSU. It was Maedo and NOT the Gracies who named it JIU-JITSU. I really see no reason why people should cry about "what did so and so "invent"??". What specific technique did Kano invent? Randori???? Common sense dictatest that the Fushin Ryu guys sparred. I mean what's Randori other than sparring? Every style does it. Boxing, western wrestling, ethic wrestling such as korean Ssirum... I mean if you want to nitpick it can never end.

I like this post the best out of all the good ones posted already.

I have almost all the books written by the Gracies and JJ Machado. I also have the Grappling Masters book mentioned above. I train with Relson and hear stories from time to time. To his credit, I think the person posting just wanted an example.

That is a wide open question to answer for several reasons but the main one is that no one really knows.

A lot of people say "leverage". Others say, "took what worked for street fighting". Still others say, "so the little guy can defend against a bigger attacker" or even the broader term "defense". There is some truth in all of the above but no one really knows. We would have to be in that time and talk to both Master Mitsuo Maeda and Master Helio Gracie and ask both of them "what is the difference". But that can not happen.

What we are left with is a honorable judoka/jiu-jitsu/professional fighter and grappler in Master Mitsuo Maeda, teaching privates for whatever time to a street fighter = Carlos, who used jiu jitsu in street fights, who then taught his brothers, who then taught all of our teachers.

To say it is still highly popular would be an understatement.

 

[blanko]

dude, it was more of a general comment rather than an attack on you. I am sorry if it came off that way. BTW i would have t agree with your school. The thing is... I don't remember Renzo's students nor Royler actually passing the guard like that. Sometimes the gracies have a tendency to teach the some techniquest that might not be the best for a specific situation.

 

[Soulfly]

Blanco:
Kano did more than invent "randori." It is common knowledge that Kano brought in all sorts of other martial arts masters in other disciplines to be his students. Of course, this makes for an awesome evolution of Judo itself. When Kano realised how good the Fushin Ryu guys were, he learned from them. Judo is not a by product of Fushin Ryu.

 

[blanko]

did i say judo was a "product of fushen ryu"? No. So i really don't understand why you would say that to me but... Hey kano took things from styles and slapped a name on it by calling it "judo".. The gracies bascially did the same thing but with trail and error. I really see no difference. What's the big deal?

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

Blanko - it's cool, dude. Thanks for your posts and replies.

I've just always been curious about GJJ/BJJ and its origins.

I guess if Helio's GJJ was just another way to repackage/teach/market previous martial arts techniques under a different name (just like Kano did with judo), I can live with it. Part of me sometimes plays the Gracie hater, saying that GJJ isn't all that and certainly is not the revolutionary art that Helio and Rorion sell it as being. I remember an online interview that Rener did, claiming that his grandfather basically came up with GJJ from scratch (or something to that effect).

The other part of me is the Gracie lover, thankful for bringing BJJ to me and the masses (regardless of whether it's just a repackaged version of other arts). Because of Helio and his sons, and only because of them (as jjmuaythaiguy said), I'm having a blast with BJJ now.

Finally, there's part of me that just can't decide but DESPERATELY wants to know if GJJ really IS all that...because hell, if it is, I better freaking learn all the details because God knows I could use that "smaller guy defeating larger guy with leverage" advantage, in real life and in competitions...

Which is why I had my original post. If Helio really did improve things with HIS GJJ, then it would serve all of us well to find out what those improvements are and stick with them (despite what the latest UFC event might try to persuade us to try). And if Helio's improvements have themselves been improved on by more modern guys, then it would help us all to learn that stuff, too.

Maybe it's just a matter of personal style and who your instructors are. If it's too broad of a question, I apologize to you all in advance. But opinions or comments are always appreciated.

 

[ryouboard]

I say "tomato;" you say "tomato."

Oops, I guess it doesn't work when typing. But you get the idea.

 

[blanko]

dude i understand but to really find out what helio did for BJJ then you should listen to Carlionos. As I said before, Getting props from him is a big deal IMHO. He could be like carslon and say that his father invented everything but he does not. He states that the attacks where there and they were tinkered just a little. According to him, what Helio did was evolve the defensive aspects of the guard. The philosophy of the old "VTD closed guard" was Helio's idea according to Carlinos. Now you have to understand two things to realise the importance of his statement (giveing props to helio)

1) Who Carlos Gracie Jr. is. He is without a doubt the most powerfull man in BJJ today. He is the president of the largest BJJ federation of the world and is the leader of one of the strongest teams in the world (Gracie Barra: that has produce the likes of Renzo, Nino, ECT). He DOES NOT NEED to give props to Helio. He does not need helio, or his approval.

2) Why is the defensive aspect of the guard in old Vale To Do so important for jiu-jitsu fighters? AAH. If you remembe the old UFC's and the Challenge fights of Helio, Rickson and Carlson then you will know that they did not fight like the modern BJJ MMA fighter. Why you ask? Well there are seveal reasons but here are some:

1)this is a big one; NO TIME LIMITS. Rickson has said many times that if he ever fought a big talented fighter ala kerr or anyone. He want's a no-time limit match. BJJ was designed to survive long enough so your opponent's stregth lvl is as same as yours or get into a position where he can not hurt you (ala the back).

2) there were headbutts and elbows in old school VTD. So you will not see a very agressive offensive guard. What you will see is a very conservative guard where the bjj fighter waits untill the opponent makes a mistake or is tired out. That was Gracie Jiu-jitsu.

If you take these two things into consideration then you realize how important Helio's contriution to Jiu-jitsu was. But now with rounds/time limits in MMA and BJJ his influence is slowing but surely diminishing.

 

[fozzit]

Where did you hear that? Uki gatame (floating hold) is a legal pin in Judo, but it is not quite the same as knee on stomach. It is when you have an armbar (juji gatame) on him with your leg over his chest and he resists by holding his arms and you grab his leg and throw back your leg that's across his face for posture and pin him with an armbar threat.

You can see a vid of that move and a lot of other ones here: Judo techniques

There are variations just like there are variations to kesa gatame just like there are variations to arm bars...

Anyways...

To be more clear you don't get the pin any longer for uke gatame.. the only two pins that count nowadays are from side mount variations, and north south...

 

[fozzit]

Maeda first left Japan in 1904... He had been studying Judo for about 7 years... Leglocks and such werent banned from Official Kodokan competition until about 15 years later... So what Maeda taught Carlos was what we in Judo call Goshen Jutsu and alot of Judo's original curriculum... which is the self defense aspect of Judo...

Here is a evolution of the changes in Judo courtesy of Judo Sensei.. http://www.judoinfo.com/rules2.htm

 

[knoxpk]

Ok 1st its Fusen Ryu developed in the 1800's or so. Its all semantics at this point really.
Hell there is one theory claiming ancient Pankration may have birthed many of the "organized" styles out there since Alexander the great was in the orient say somewhere around 500 years before christ was born. I may be off a little but you get the point.
It REALLY doesnt matter. its a hybrid style based off another style based off another style etc...
It works and thanks gracies for bringing it to us.

 

[eljamaiquino]

staying in a position for a few seconds and actually fighting from that position are two different things. Remember, in the early days of Sport BJJ you got points for getting to someone's 1/2 guard. They thought that the 1/2 guard was a "weak position" until Gordo came along. (Which is sort of true when you think it in a VTD sense)



Do cultures all over the world have judo throws? Do cultures all over the world have Fencing lunges? Sure there are pictures of elbows and kneews in karate and other styles but does karate have the devolped clinch game like muay thai? No. The name of the game is details and philosophy.


All this being said, BJJ is basically a rebirth of Fushin Ryu(sp) jiu jitsu. Kano bribed/stole their ground game after his students got spanked and then when he saw his students fight like Fushin Ryu guys he started to put in rules so they will follow "his jiu-jitsu". Maeda, who believed in the effective ness of the Fushin Ryu style of fighting told the gracies that he taught JIU-JITSU. It was Maedo and NOT the Gracies who named it JIU-JITSU. I really see no reason why people should cry about "what did so and so "invent"??". What specific technique did Kano invent? Randori???? Common sense dictatest that the Fushin Ryu guys sparred. I mean what's Randori other than sparring? Every style does it. Boxing, western wrestling, ethic wrestling such as korean Ssirum... I mean if you want to nitpick it can never end.

Have you ever seen the tapes? They do fight from that position, sorry....


Yes, other cultures do develop judo throws. O-goshi is the hip toss which many cultures have deveoped. Ippon seio nage is the flying mare. many other cultures have the same throws in their throwing and wrestling arts. Cultures that use edged weapons do develop similar movements. There's an article on themartialist's site showing the similarities betwen Arnis and kenjutsu movements. They both used edged weapons so of course humans would develop the most efficient movements no matter where they were. The lunge thrust has been used since Roman times, not to the extent of the fencer's due to shorter blades, but it was used. Japanese swordmanship developed around the cut rather than the penetration/stab, but Roman soldier's used stabs and the footwork is extremely similar.

Why are you saying that Kano didn't invent Randori when by your own statement, the Gracies merely copied what Maeda tought them of Fushin Ryu? Why use one standard for kano and another for the Gracies?

BTW, Does aikido have sparring? How about ninjitsu? Oh wait, you said every style does it right? Tell me where you've seen aikidoka spar using their techniques against realistic attacks full force. The concept of using techniques full force against full attacks was revolutionary for jujitsu at the time, regardless of practices in other regions.

And we still haven't answered the question. What defensive changes were made?
Kano's contribution is concrete. Randori, technique organization, belt ranks. What defensive changes did Helio make? Why is it that no-one can give us specifics? Did he change a gaurd, modify footwork, what??????? If the changes are so critical and important, why can't anyone remember what they were?

 

[knoxpk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo


interesting read!

 

[Soulfly]

Have you ever seen the tapes? They do fight from that position, sorry....


Yes, other cultures do develop judo throws. O-goshi is the hip toss which many cultures have deveoped. Ippon seio nage is the flying mare. many other cultures have the same throws in their throwing and wrestling arts. Cultures that use edged weapons do develop similar movements. There's an article on themartialist's site showing the similarities betwen Arnis and kenjutsu movements. They both used edged weapons so of course humans would develop the most efficient movements no matter where they were. The lunge thrust has been used since Roman times, not to the extent of the fencer's due to shorter blades, but it was used. Japanese swordmanship developed around the cut rather than the penetration/stab, but Roman soldier's used stabs and the footwork is extremely similar.

Why are you saying that Kano didn't invent Randori when by your own statement, the Gracies merely copied what Maeda tought them of Fushin Ryu? Why use one standard for kano and another for the Gracies?

BTW, Does aikido have sparring? How about ninjitsu? Oh wait, you said every style does it right? Tell me where you've seen aikidoka spar using their techniques against realistic attacks full force. The concept of using techniques full force against full attacks was revolutionary for jujitsu at the time, regardless of practices in other regions.

And we still haven't answered the question. What defensive changes were made?
Kano's contribution is concrete. Randori, technique organization, belt ranks. What defensive changes did Helio make? Why is it that no-one can give us specifics? Did he change a gaurd, modify footwork, what??????? If the changes are so critical and important, why can't anyone remember what they were?

Nice post, thank you.

 

[eljamaiquino]

Ok so by Blanko's statement, Maeda, Carlos Sr and others never discovered/invented the closed gaurd at all? Helio was the one that came up with that? Can we have a source here on this?

 

[fozzit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo


interesting read!

Its a stupid article mixed withbad mat, assumptions, and fact... If Maeda left Japan in 1904 and the Kosen tournaments weren't created until 10 years later, then it's historically impossible for Maeda to teach the gracies Kosen Judo. Also, Kosen didn't really develope a intricate ground game until the 20's and 30's.... The Gracies already established a academy by then and were unaware of many moves until they were introduced them by judoka who competed in their tournaments or judo books , for example, the ezekiel choke, and triangle chokes... The intricate ground game didnt really develop until the 80's with de la riva and his sweeps, and others with the half guard etc...

 

[thecas]

It is indeed mysterious..perhaps till one asks Helio?

In my JJJ class, it was detailed till it matched[as in, is the almost the same as] bjj, at least what I read, much. We were taught things like thumb pointing up in armbar, body perpendicular for triangle etc. the perpendicular body part isnt mentioned in royler/renzo's book tho. All in all, you add up u get a whole maze, but tis by n large the same.