What WERE Helio's changes to JJJ?

[blanko]

eljamaiquino,

Ok so by Blanko's statement, Maeda, Carlos Sr and others never discovered/invented the closed gaurd at all?

No by my statement and according to carlos gracie jr. Helio improved the defensive aspects of the family's jiu jitsu.


"...but it was my uncle Helio, Who made great improvements in the desensive aspects of ... -Carlos Gracie Jr. "grappling Masters", Pg 32.


how the heck do you get "helio invented the closed guard" from that? With what kind of logic do you come to that conclusion?

 

[stephensharp]

I'm not usually wikipedia's biggest fan, since it's fan generated, and thus dubious in its veracity.... But I think it explained it pretty well. Maeda learned the style that later came to be known as Kosen Judo, and taught it to the Brazillians. What's wrong with that?

 

[fozzit]

^^ BUT That's false Stephen.. You're usually on point with your posts.. Kosen Judo developed by colleges who loved newaza so they played itit..... They start the match on the ground on the knees and you win with either pin or submission.. Maeda Learned Judo in it's first 20 years of existence when wrist locks, leg locks, and other now illegal moves were still legal in competition, and the high ranking blackbelts were doing randori with atemi waza... He then used his judo for his catch matches.. Kosen Judo closely resembles bjj in the 80's but old school bjj in general is based on judo pre-1914 sans ippon for perfect throw..

 

[stephensharp]

^^ BUT That's false Stephen.. You're usually on point with your posts.. Kosen Judo developed by colleges who loved newaza so they played itit..... They start the match on the ground on the knees and you win with either pin or submission.. Maeda Learned Judo in it's first 20 years of existence when wrist locks, leg locks, and other now illegal moves were still legal in competition, and the high ranking blackbelts were doing randori with atemi waza... He then used his judo for his catch matches.. Kosen Judo closely resembles bjj in the 80's but old school bjj in general is based on judo pre-1914 sans ippon for perfect throw..

But it's not irrational to look at the fact that the Kodokan had developed its own ne waza wizards, borrowing heavily from the Fusen Ryu, and Maeda came from that school of thought, leaving before any rule changes began to water down that side. Kosen was the only branch of judo untouched by the dumbing down of ne waza.

To me, it shows a parralel progression between BJJ and Kosen Judo. The wording with "this is the style brought to Japan by Maeda" is misleading, since it wasn't named "Kosen" until 1914. HOWEVER...

Maeda was the student of Tsunejiro Tomita, who returned to Japan to teach "sportive" Judo, which became known as Kosen, while his student went off prize fighting and training with Catch Wrestlers.

Maeda didn't go teach "Kosen Judo" in Brazil, because he may not have even known it by that name. He also hadn't been callign it Judo for some time because he was kicked out of the Kodokan and erased from their records because they strictly forbade prize fighting. Thus, he just called it "Jujutsu", or "Jiu-Jitsu". It's still the same style that guys like Tomita and Yamashita were doing and became Kosen (High School) judo back in Japan a year before Maeda arrived in Brazil.

I'm just saying it's not that innacurate.

 

[stephensharp]

http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html

Another interesting read...

Also, to clear things up a bit, Kosen is/was not a separate school or style. It was just a name given to what they had been doing since 1900 and the absorbtion of the Fussen Ryu...

koutou gakkou means "high schools."
senmongakkou means "technical/professional universities."

Combining these two terms, we get the contacted form:
koutou senmongakkou which refers to a network of high schools, prep schools, and universities. It's comparable to the American term "Ivy League."

kousen is just a contraction for koutou senmongakkou. Further "Romanized", we get Kosen. So, if there was a specific style that was taught to Universities and enhanced by their rule set, this being a ne waza heavy, less restrictive style, and it was the same as what Maeda taught Carlos... What is wrong in that statement that what they were taught was the same?

 

[knoxpk]

This is a VERY interestng topic.
It has some relevance also considering the trademarking of the name Gracie Jiu Jitsu and selling of the style.
Fundamentally it appears the gracies did not do much other than preserve an existing art. That in and of itself is an accomplishment because without the preservation we would not have been exposed to it like we were.

In all likehood Gracie jiu Jitsu is pre war Kosen Judo.
To draw a paralell that most americans would understand.
Dan Gable obviously had an approach to his wrestling style and his coaching style, proven by his DOMINATION by his teams as well as his very own performances in HS, College and the Olympics.
I am certain that he steers his team AWAY from certain techniques and works very hard and emphasizes others.
So that being said he has his own "style" of wrestling and teaching wrestling but in the end it's still wrestling.
So did the Gracies INVENT their own style?
Based on what I know the answer is no. They took a martial art and worked on a certain part of it.
More or less its the gracies version of Kosen Judo or Fusen ryu jujutsu, whatever the case may be.

 

[fozzit]

But it's not irrational to look at the fact that the Kodokan had developed its own ne waza wizards, borrowing heavily from the Fusen Ryu, and Maeda came from that school of thought, leaving before any rule changes began to water down that side. Kosen was the only branch of judo untouched by the dumbing down of ne waza.

True, but besides basic submissions, if maeda was such a ne waza wizard then what did the gracie family develop then?

To me, it shows a parralel progression between BJJ and Kosen Judo. The wording with "this is the style brought to Japan by Maeda" is misleading, since it wasn't named "Kosen" until 1914. HOWEVER...
The Kosen Games weren't founded until around that time.. 10 years after Maeda left... But your right.. the progression was parallel.. If you remember tho, kosen judo was a college sport, while gracie jiu jitsu at the time was focused on street fighting, vale tudo, and self defense.. Kosen at this time was developing sweeps and submissions unseen to bjj until around the 50's-70's when sport bjj started to take off i.e Ezekial, triangle choke, various open guard attacks and sweeps.. A great Kosen Guy is Kimura who had awesome newaza and tachiwaza...If you remember, George Medhi, Judo kudan in brazil was a student of Kimura and studied with Kimura at the college with a kosen team...MEdhi had plenty of bjj students who crosstrained with him..

Maeda was the student of Tsunejiro Tomita, who returned to Japan to teach "sportive" Judo, which became known as Kosen, while his student went off prize fighting and training with Catch Wrestlers.
Tomita was with kano since the jujutsu match of 1886... Kano was trying to sell Judo to the world, and making it sportive was one of it's selling points... A Martial Art is a martial art is a martial art.. What does this have to do with Maeda? The Kosen guys in the 30's-50's shitted on bjj as far as ground work from the 30's-50's, but in a street fight the bjj guys woulda probably whooped them due to the goshen jutsu training of the gracie academies..

Maeda didn't go teach "Kosen Judo" in Brazil, because he may not have even known it by that name. He also hadn't been callign it Judo for some time because he was kicked out of the Kodokan and erased from their records because they strictly forbade prize fighting. Thus, he just called it "Jujutsu", or "Jiu-Jitsu". It's still the same style that guys like Tomita and Yamashita were doing and became Kosen (High School) judo back in Japan a year before Maeda arrived in Brazil.
Maeda was never kicked out of the kodokan and was in fact sent another dan from the kodokan which was in route right before he died... The kodokan looked down on prize fighting but many did it to make money and get their dojo's started in america and europe... Catch Wrestling and Judo in fact have bonds that people don't really discuss...After Judo careers were over, many judoka including kimura, and gene lebell went in to pro wrestling, catch wrestling, to make a living... Kosen teams were in colleges, not high school..

I'm just saying it's not that innacurate.
The Kodokan is one of the most well documented martial arts ever established, and it is pretty user friendly to look up information.. There are many misconceptions you can clear up from reliable sources with a little bit of research...

 

[fozzit]

http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html

Another interesting read...

Also, to clear things up a bit, Kosen is/was not a separate school or style. It was just a name given to what they had been doing since 1900 and the absorbtion of the Fussen Ryu...

koutou gakkou means "high schools."
senmongakkou means "technical/professional universities."

Combining these two terms, we get the contacted form:
koutou senmongakkou which refers to a network of high schools, prep schools, and universities. It's comparable to the American term "Ivy League."

kousen is just a contraction for koutou senmongakkou. Further "Romanized", we get Kosen. So, if there was a specific style that was taught to Universities and enhanced by their rule set, this being a ne waza heavy, less restrictive style, and it was the same as what Maeda taught Carlos... What is wrong in that statement that what they were taught was the same?

Because it is not true... Point being Maeda taught Carlos Gracie how to fight with Judo, Kosen Judo is a judo sport which is not based on self defense... It is merely coincidence that Sport BJJ has similarities to Kosen Judo based on the similar rules, major differences being in bjj you start standing up and in kosen matches you can get ippon by pins, and you start on the ground. Gracies refined the self defense with ground defense and attacks, while kosen developed fancy open guard sweeps, attacks, etc. These werent really showing up in bjj untill the 70's and 80's. That means as far as newaza goes, they were 30 years ahead of the gracies according to kosen rules, but from teh 80's until now bjj is light years more advanced newaza guys than kosen, especially since there arent but a few kosen schools n existence today...

 

[knoxpk]

Tomita was with kano since the jujutsu match of 1886... Kano was trying to sell Judo to the world, and making it sportive was one of it's selling points... A Martial Art is a martial art is a martial art.. What does this have to do with Maeda? The Kosen guys in the 30's-50's shitted on bjj as far as ground work from the 30's-50's, but in a street fight the bjj guys woulda probably whooped them due to the goshen jutsu training of the gracie academies..

Great posts but I dont understand the above comment. Are you saying that someone like Royce who uses the "street" version of BJJ now would "shit" on another BJJ grappler that does well in Sub grappling at a high level in a street fight?
It appears that you are somewhat comparing Kosen Judo to the sub grappling form of BJJ we are seeing nowadays. That is why I ask for the comparison.
I would think that a BJJ black belt trained primarily in sub graplling would fare quite well against the "closed" guard game of other BJJ black belts.

 

[fozzit]

It's really up to the individual and what he trains, but a lot of the shit we don't learn in bjj today can be counter productive if fighting a experienced street fighter.. Helio has been known to say that bjj today isn't the art he created...

 

[jjmuaythaiguy]

This is a great discussion thread. So far no one is attacking anyone. People are just using informative points. As people on here know, I train bjj with Relson but since I was training at a Kodokan for gi takedowns last night, I can really appreciate this discussion.

 

[knoxpk]

Ok now to the point I was trying to make earlier.
The way it "seems" is that the gracies were shown the techniques and they selectively "excluded" techniques that were not suitable for street fighting or challenge fighting etc..
The parallel you drew between the use of Kosen style then and the way BJJ has developed now reflects that the BJJ we are seeing now is actually INCLUDING techniques that were used before but put away to focus on the fighting aspect of the style.

WHOO that was a mouthful.

Now getting back to it.

How is it that Gracie style was simply not Fusen jujutsu or Kosen Judo MINUS certain sportative aspects?

If you read my anolgy using Dan Gable as an example you see where I am taking this.

 

[fozzit]

Because there are a few fusen ryu schools today and they look nothing like bjj or judo.. What Kano did was add fusen ryu techniques into the kodokan curriculum... Kano also added wrestling techniques into his curriculum which was looked down upon by other jujutsu masters because it wasnt japanese in origin... Does that mean Wrestling is Judo? You feel where I am going here? Fusen ryu is just a small ingredient to the dish, and all it did was let kano know how important ne waza training is.. Thus the 4 parts of the judo curriculum is standup, ground work, striking, self defense and kata to preserve the "dangerous" techniques banned from sparring and competition... Maeda taught the same curriculum to carlos gracie before many other holds were banned from judo competition.. Please refer to the evolution of judo rules to explain the phenomenom known as the GREAT WATER DOWN.. Kano created the judo gi, as well as refined the philosophy of training, and judo was created to preserve jujutsu in more modern times... He did not intend judo to be a sport, but a way of life, similar to aikido but with realistic application of techniques..

 

[knoxpk]

Because there are a few fusen ryu schools today and they look nothing like bjj or judo.. What Kano did was add fusen ryu techniques into the kodokan curriculum... Kano also added wrestling techniques into his curriculum which was looked down upon by other jujutsu masters because it wasnt japanese in origin... Does that mean Wrestling is Judo? You feel where I am going here? Fusen ryu is just a small ingredient to the dish, and all it did was let kano know how important ne waza training is.. Thus the 4 parts of the judo curriculum is standup, ground work, striking, self defense and kata to preserve the "dangerous" techniques banned from sparring and competition... Maeda taught the same curriculum to carlos gracie before many other holds were banned from judo competition.. Please refer to the evolution of judo rules to explain the phenomenom known as the GREAT WATER DOWN.. Kano created the judo gi, as well as refined the philosophy of training, and judo was created to preserve jujutsu in more modern times... He did not intend judo to be a sport, but a way of life, similar to aikido but with realistic application of techniques..

Ok so I get that so far. So is it not Kosen Judo that the gracies now call GJJ?
In other words what ARE (in black and white) the differences between KOSEN JUDO as taught to them by Maeda versus what they taught into the late 80's.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

Ok so I get that so far. So is it not Kosen Judo that the gracies now call GJJ?
In other words what ARE (in black and white) the differences between KOSEN JUDO as taught to them by Maeda versus what they taught into the late 80's.

Great info guys...keep it coming. You're schooling a lot of us here.

You basically just asked my original question. Maybe there AREN'T any differences, and that Helio's GJJ is the same stuff (just repackaged and marketed to the masses, who otherwise would never have heard of things like fusen ryu/kosen judo/etc....and I agree that that action in and of itself is enough for us to thank Helio and his clan).

Again, I'm not asking the question to see who gets MORE GRATITUDE, or who is the ORIGINATOR/FOUNDER. It's just to find out the differences so that, for one, we can corroborate Helio's statements that BJJ today is too watered down and that HIS BJJ is truly most effective for smaller guys to defeat larger guys.

 

[fozzit]

WTF!!!! Are my sentences not constructed clearly enough? Stephen Sharp even posted history of kosen http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showpost.php?p=7724618&postcount=46

I'll reiterate my thousand posts the best I could just for you homie..

Kosen (30's-50's) is a judo game fought on the ground and you win by either pin or submission. The participants in this competition or who trained in it developed good ground games which included open guard sweeps and attacks, and set ups for submissions, and escapes. Many Top Level Judo players pre-ww2 and a little bit afterwards practiced for these tournaments while in high school and college and continuued training their ground game in it afterwards.

GJJ is Judo refined for Self Defense, Street Fighting, and Vale Tudo in Brazil. Developed by the gracie brothers they really paid attention to details regarding techniques and made them perfect for weaker individuals who wished to defend themselves against larger opponents.

BJJ now largeley concentrates on competition. Many techniques have been refined since the old jiu jitsu in Brazil which includes, improved set ups, open guard games and variations, refined techniques, guard jumping, butt scooting, sweeps, wrestling take downs, etc. The techniques available today shits on the best of what kosen judo had to offer back in the day as evident by the kosen judo videos readily available for purchase online.

 

[knoxpk]

It's just to find out the differences so that, for one, we can corroborate Helio's statements that BJJ today is too watered down and that HIS BJJ is truly most effective for smaller guys to defeat larger guys.

DJ I think that may have more to do with the patient closed guard approach versus the open guard styles etc.. After all someone of slight frame but great with a closed guard could keep a striking opponent in that closed guard for quite some time if needed. But the open guard presents a challenge since the other guy is basically free to move around a land a lucky shot at some point.

Other than that I am still curious as to what is differnt between GJJ and Kosen Judo that Maeda taught.

 

[fozzit]

Maeda didnt teach Kosen Judo.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

fozzit, stephensharp, knox: thanks for some great posts. Sorry if it's taking me a while to digest everything.

So in summary, the notion that Helio "improved" the jiu jitsu that he was taught by Carlos and Maeda is essentially true, and that his improvements really were based on the notion that he was of slight build and needed to ensure that his technique was effective by using leverage and by focusing on even the smallest details, INSTEAD of just muscling/forcing his way with the moves.

Also, since today's modern BJJ (as seen in today's numerous MMA/BJJ competitions, which inherently have rules and restrictions) is less applicable with the old-school fighting of Helio's era (i.e. streetfighting, or more realistically old-school Brazilian underground NHB/Vale Tudo, the most recent modern example of which would be early UFC), then Helio's notion that today's BJJ is not the BJJ that HE developed and teaches, is in fact true.

So despite the fact that advances in competition BJJ (e.g. open guard) have really made "modern" BJJ quite complex and arguably more fun to watch and learn, it would be wise for any student to take Helio's fundamental techniques (for example, straight out of his "Gracie Jiu Jitsu Master Text") and learn them like the back of their hands.

In the end, just as judo experienced the GREAT WATER DOWN due to WW2 and competition rules, so then is BJJ experiencing the same thing. Unless you're training SOLELY for competition, you're really missing out on the HEART of BJJ/GJJ if you DON'T learn Helio's GJJ.

Is that all correct?

Now I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but for guys like jjmuaythaiguy and others who see Helio's GJJ regularly and also train in other JJJ/BJJ/Judo/grappling, do you have any specific examples to help make this diatribe more concrete?

e.g. the kneeling guard pass I described earlier...Helio, Rorion, and his sons continue to teach it, but whether you're doing sport BJJ or not, or gi vs. no-gi, many would argue that it's too old-fashioned and not combat-applicable...what do you all think? or am I just talking in circles?

 

[eljamaiquino]

eljamaiquino,



No by my statement and according to carlos gracie jr. Helio improved the defensive aspects of the family's jiu jitsu.


"...but it was my uncle Helio, Who made great improvements in the desensive aspects of ... -Carlos Gracie Jr. "grappling Masters", Pg 32.


how the heck do you get "helio invented the closed guard" from that? With what kind of logic do you come to that conclusion?

The whole "improved the defensive aspects" is so vague that that I thought you were trying to imply that. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But again, what defensive aspects did he improve? Are there no concrete examples? That quote tells us nothing..