What techniques did Helio change to better suit the smaller person?

[georgejjr]

I have no idea. It's kind of as I was saying in my original post in this thread, I think in general, when you're not good at a technique, you use strength to fill in the gaps. They could be throws, they could be submissions. But if you haven't learned a technique to mastery level, and it doesn't work on bigger guys, it's natural to blame it on a lack of strength. I think from there Helio had to fill in the details himself. In many cases, he did it the same way it was being done in Japan, sort of independently discovering the same thing. In other ways, he did the same techniques slightly differently than in Judo. For example look at the traditional BJJ way of teaching an armbar from guard, and the traditional Judo way of doing it.

I think that's it. BTW, judo people, who've typically done a couple of years of high school wrestling (at most), or who's contact with wrestling is via students with a couple of years of high school wrestling, often think wrestling is much more strength based than judo. Its only when they work with a high quality wrestler do they realize that wrestling is as skill based as judo. As you say, beginners in any grappling (or probably any combat sport) try to use strength to fill holes in their technique, often without realizing it. So if your only experience with a style is with its beginners, you're going to think its based on being stronger ...

It makes complete sense to me that's what Helio was thinking about when he said judo was strength based - his experience with judo (ie three years training) would actually be strength based. Same as a lot of judoka's experience with wrestling.

 

[seatea]

Indeed it's not at all unreasonable to conceive of Helio and co observing the personality cult that arose around Kano and apeing that for their own personality cult around Helio and associated marketing activity.

After all, how many people truly believe Kano happened to beat a bearish Russian sailor on a cruise ship around the time that Japan was fighting the Russo-Japanese war and beating the Russian navy at sea with the newly invigorated and Westernised Japanese navy? The obvious levels of patriotic allegory are almost too blatant to point out.

Did this myth-making happen, or at least begin to, while Kano was alive?

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

It makes complete sense to me that's what Helio was thinking about when he said judo was strength based - his experience with judo (ie three years training) would actually be strength based. Same as a lot of judoka's experience with wrestling.

Not even. Helio never trained under Maeda, and nobody in his family disputes that. It was Carlos that trained under Maeda for 3 years. Helio claims he learned by watching. Whether or not that's true, it's undeniable that he had even less experience than his older brother.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Indeed it's not at all unreasonable to conceive of Helio and co observing the personality cult that arose around Kano and apeing that for their own personality cult around Helio and associated marketing activity.

After all, how many people truly believe Kano happened to beat a bearish Russian sailor on a cruise ship around the time that Japan was fighting the Russo-Japanese war and beating the Russian navy at sea with the newly invigorated and Westernised Japanese navy? The obvious levels of patriotic allegory are almost too blatant to point out.

I'm glad you agree with my theory, as I generally respect your opinions. I see it as the only logical way to interpret the facts that we have, and to explain how we got to where we are today. Or at least I find it a lot more plausible than "everything is lies."

Likewise I agree with what you're saying about the aura around Kano. I would add Mifune to that list. I mean you see these videos of him in his elderly years, throwing people around, and everyone claims they're giving him full resistance. Meanwhile it looks as choreographed as Aikido. A lot of these old-timey claims are hard to believe for anyone who has trained grappling. The way I look at that aspect is a generational thing. It's not just Helio or Kano, you can throw in any martial arts legend from that era. Toss in a bunch of the famous catch wrestlers too. The fact is that great masculine figures from that era were big on bragging, and often inflated and exaggerated stories to enhance their egos and reputations. I think there's a lot of that going on in these cases. Or, it's sort of the Jesus effect, where the followers are the ones who make him the legend, and I think there's a lot of that hero worship going on here too.

Which is a shame really, because these individuals accomplished a great deal, and contributed so much to the martial arts that their stories don't need to be exaggerated for their work to be appreciated.

 

[JudokaUK]

Did this myth-making happen, or at least begin to, while Kano was alive?

It's very difficult to say, because so few serious historians study this kind of thing and the language barrier is a serious issue.

However, there is evidence of the 'famous' Judo vs Jujutsu police match being fabricated within the lifetimes of some of the alleged participants.

There's also the air brushing of the strong links between Judo and elements of Japanese fascism from the history and how the elements of the influence of muscular Christianity helped Europeans to segway it neatly into not only polite English society but the Kraft durch Freude elements of Nazi Germany.

As part of a wider narrative of Judo supremacy and pallet ability to various western audiences.

The influence of Western and specifically British elite pedagogical thought is often woefully unreported, yet was undeniably crucial to how Kano conceived of Judo and how he developed it.

The filtering of Protestant Victorian British notions of Muscular Christianity via Kano's Judo re-emerging and being re-interpreted by descendants of a Scottish Presbyterian in Catholic Brazil is surely one of the most interesting and yet unreported and under-studied stories of the martial arts in recent history.

 

[JudokaUK]

I'm glad you agree with my theory, as I generally respect your opinions.

Thanks, likewise.

Likewise I agree with what you're saying about the aura around Kano. I would add Mifune to that list. I mean you see these videos of him in his elderly years, throwing people around, and everyone claims they're giving him full resistance. Meanwhile it looks as choreographed as Aikido. A lot of these old-timey claims are hard to believe for anyone who has trained grappling. The way I look at that aspect is a generational thing. It's not just Helio or Kano, you can throw in any martial arts legend from that era. Toss in a bunch of the famous catch wrestlers too. The fact is that great masculine figures from that era were big on bragging, and often inflated and exaggerated stories to enhance their egos and reputations. I think there's a lot of that going on in these cases. Or, it's sort of the Jesus effect, where the followers are the ones who make him the legend, and I think there's a lot of that hero worship going on here too.

Which is a shame really, because these individuals accomplished a great deal, and contributed so much to the martial arts that their stories don't need to be exaggerated for their work to be appreciated.

The stories about Mifune being some kind of Kano/Helio style weakling who somehow ascended to God like status through technique are total hogwash.

Comparing Mifune's vitals to the Japanese population average at the time he was no smaller or taller than the average and photos of him shirtless in his youth and contemporary records of his training regimen, reveal a man not only dedicated to personal fitness and strength regimes, but to Western methods of strength training and fitness.

Video of him in his dotage with highly respectful Japanese and Western ukes willing to 'flow with the go' and take a dive at his every movement are clearly and obviously not representative of his skill, real or imagined.

Indeed his legendary meteoric rise through the ranks is actually matched if not bested by several other less celebrated figures, and that is purely for those we have translated and studied records for.

As always the timeless fundamentals cut through strength, fitness and technique go hand in hand.

No individual is able to separate one from the other and last at the top for long.

Nor is any one individual ever really attributable as the source of this technique or that. It's usually either a rediscovery, refinement or outright copy of someone else's work, which they themselves gleaned from someone else.

 

[seatea]

The filtering of Protestant Victorian British notions of Muscular Christianity via Kano's Judo re-emerging and being re-interpreted by descendants of a Scottish Presbyterian in Catholic Brazil is surely one of the most interesting and yet unreported and under-studied stories of the martial arts in recent history.

I see what you did there...

 

[QingTian]

I'm glad you agree with my theory, as I generally respect your opinions. I see it as the only logical way to interpret the facts that we have, and to explain how we got to where we are today. Or at least I find it a lot more plausible than "everything is lies."

Likewise I agree with what you're saying about the aura around Kano. I would add Mifune to that list. I mean you see these videos of him in his elderly years, throwing people around, and everyone claims they're giving him full resistance. Meanwhile it looks as choreographed as Aikido. A lot of these old-timey claims are hard to believe for anyone who has trained grappling. The way I look at that aspect is a generational thing. It's not just Helio or Kano, you can throw in any martial arts legend from that era. Toss in a bunch of the famous catch wrestlers too. The fact is that great masculine figures from that era were big on bragging, and often inflated and exaggerated stories to enhance their egos and reputations. I think there's a lot of that going on in these cases. Or, it's sort of the Jesus effect, where the followers are the ones who make him the legend, and I think there's a lot of that hero worship going on here too.

Which is a shame really, because these individuals accomplished a great deal, and contributed so much to the martial arts that their stories don't need to be exaggerated for their work to be appreciated.

At my dojo there is a small Japanese man in his 60's who was still able to fight. He was about Mifune's size, and was he the sneakiest old man ever. Not only that but you could feel the strength from all the years of training.

When I was a beginner he would throw me around, with me being in my 20's and over a full head taller. I don't need to go off reputation here. It wasn't until I reached near black belt level did I start to get the upper hand. Sadly his health declined and I no longer spar with him.

Now it's true, we don't fight him the same way as we would another young person, but to compare it to an Aikido demonstration is absurd. Even if not a true fight, it is a superb demonstration of timing and sikill.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Now it's true, we don't fight him the same way as we would another young person, but to compare it to an Aikido demonstration is absurd. Even if not a true fight, it is a superb demonstration of timing and sikill.

I'm talking about a specific video of Mifune. Believe me it's not absurd.

 

[Thrawn33]

I'm talking about a specific video of Mifune. Believe me it's not absurd.

I know the one you're speaking of, and yes his uke's were compliant as hell. Still takes nothing away from what the man did in his earlier years, I don't base my opinion on him from that one video.

But that ties into a story I heard first hand from someone who trained with Mifune in the years before his passing.

I'll paraphrase:

"Nobody ever wanted to uke for Mifune because of how old and frail he was. He was so respected by the Japanese players that if anything happened to Mifune Sensei during practice (usually kata)...didn't even matter if he had a heart attack while bowing to you during Nage-No-Kata.... you would be given a sword and private room to go out with dignity, because one way or another you would not be leaving the Kodokan alive. Unfortunatly for me, I was one of the few westerners that he actually enjoyed training with because I guess I fall well"

 

[J Sho]

Not even. Helio never trained under Maeda, and nobody in his family disputes that. It was Carlos that trained under Maeda for 3 years. Helio claims he learned by watching. Whether or not that's true, it's undeniable that he had even less experience than his older brother.

Helio cannot really have learne through observation of Maeda, I had always assumed this was obvious, but i still see people on other forums referring to "the gracie brothers" training with Maeda (which they didn't) or Carlos teaching Helio techniques whilst he was training with maeda (which is highly unlikely), so just for observations sake...

Carlos was learning from Maeda when he was only 14, but compare that to the ages of the other brothers. Carlos was born 1902, Gastao Jr in 1906, George in 1911 and Helio in 1913 (i cannot find a dob for Osvaldo, we know Carlos was the oldest so he must have been younger), so during the time period 1917 - 1921 when Carlos was with Maeda:
*Carlos was ~15 to 19 years old.
*Gastao Jr was ~11 - 15 years old.
*George was ~6 to 10 years old.
*Helio was ~4 to 8 years old.

I would suggest it is very very unlikely that Helio "learnt" any judo/jiu jitsu in any meaningful fashion (such that it would influence his GJJ in later life) in that timeframe in Belem since he was only a young child.

Fast forward to 1925 when the first "Gracie academy" was opened in Rio
*Carlos was 23 years old.
*Gastao Jr was 19 years old.
*George was 14 years old.
*Helio was 12 years old.

Based on the gracieacademy's own blurb, Helio didn't live with his elder brothers in Rio until 1927/the age of 14 and was then we are told, teaching that first class in 1929 at the age of 16.

So in between first training with Maeda and opening the academy, Carlos has been 'training' Jiu Jitsu for ~8 years, Helio on the other hand has had only minimal exposure to it, has never actually trained it and doesn't even live with his brothers/have direct exposure to GJJ until 1927, or 10 years after Carlos first starts training.

 

[georgejjr]

Helio cannot really have learne through observation of Maeda, I had always assumed this was obvious, but i still see people on other forums referring to "the gracie brothers" training with Maeda (which they didn't) or Carlos teaching Helio techniques whilst he was training with maeda (which is highly unlikely), so just for observations sake...

Carlos was learning from Maeda when he was only 14, but compare that to the ages of the other brothers. Carlos was born 1902, Gastao Jr in 1906, George in 1911 and Helio in 1913 (i cannot find a dob for Osvaldo, we know Carlos was the oldest so he must have been younger), so during the time period 1917 - 1921 when Carlos was with Maeda:
*Carlos was ~15 to 19 years old.
*Gastao Jr was ~11 - 15 years old.
*George was ~6 to 10 years old.
*Helio was ~4 to 8 years old.

I would suggest it is very very unlikely that Helio "learnt" any judo/jiu jitsu in any meaningful fashion (such that it would influence his GJJ in later life) in that timeframe in Belem since he was only a young child.

Fast forward to 1925 when the first "Gracie academy" was opened in Rio
*Carlos was 23 years old.
*Gastao Jr was 19 years old.
*George was 14 years old.
*Helio was 12 years old.

Based on the gracieacademy's own blurb, Helio didn't live with his elder brothers in Rio until 1927/the age of 14 and was then we are told, teaching that first class in 1929 at the age of 16.

So in between first training with Maeda and opening the academy, Carlos has been 'training' Jiu Jitsu for ~8 years, Helio on the other hand has had only minimal exposure to it, has never actually trained it and doesn't even live with his brothers/have direct exposure to GJJ until 1927, or 10 years after Carlos first starts training.

Interesting, but doesn't it suggest he could have studied Carlo's "judo" for 2-3 years (ie betwen the ages of 14-16)? Which is what was others said above. It certainly backs S2Rambo's explanation of why he might have thought judo was strength based - learning about a style from someone with only a few years of experience (Carlos), and then only having a few years yourself of it, means you're likely to be using far too much strength.

Again, I'm struck with the similarity to Kano, who'd only done ju-jitsu for a few years before opening the Kodokan. It's quite possible that his opinions of ju-jitsu (Japanese traditional flavor) were also colored accordingly. And both would have rediscovered a lot of techniques, in new varieties, because of their lack of exposure to existing styles.

That's probably not possible today, what with the Internet and all - everyone is exposed to everything.

 

[Aprentice]

The filtering of Protestant Victorian British notions of Muscular Christianity via Kano's Judo re-emerging and being re-interpreted by descendants of a Scottish Presbyterian in Catholic Brazil is surely one of the most interesting and yet unreported and under-studied stories of the martial arts in recent history.

it is interesting...

but aren't they just part scottish? they were mostly normal brazilian catholics that had some scottish blood and last name, don't you think??

I am brazilian and live in Brazil... names here many times don't show your actual blood and cultural heritage so much, since we are so mixed. You could have a japanese last name and not look japanese at all, and you could not have a japanese last name and look really japanese.

 

[KORUPT xLOxx]

I don't know why people are using terms like Helio and Carlos just "tweaked" things a little but didn't invent any new holds or techniques.. JJ had an almost non-existent guard as we now know it. It looked nothing like that and didn't even emphasize it they way BJJ does. To say it was minor tweaking isn't close to true.