What techniques did Helio change to better suit the smaller person?

[Deltafarce]

Was it individual techniques or just everything ?

 

[SFCFighter]

In reality? he just removed the emphasis on tachiwaza and pinning and made it about submissions

 

[Einarr]

The Japanese, known for being huge, tall, muscle-bound

 

[Difeco]

guard

 

[triangle killer]

The Japanese, known for being huge, tall, muscle-bound

 

[RJ Green]

 

[SMillard]

The Japanese, known for being huge, tall, muscle-bound

 

[RJ Green]

Helio is the Lady Gaga to Kano's Madonna.

 

[SMillard]

Helio is the Lady Gaga to Kano's Madonna.

actually I'd say Helio is to Elvis to as Kano is to Carl Perkins or any old African American blues musician.

Everyone knows about Elvis, but only the cool in the know people know about Carl Perkins and the old African American blues singers

and because I can't stand Madonna and hate the idea of thinking of Kano in that light.

 

[triangle killer]

this pretty much sums it up. The Helio was "small and weak" myth amazes me, even with pictures of the guy in his prime people buy into it.

Pics? I have heard this but can't recall actually seeing the pictures

 

[jujijimmy]

He had a nasty collar choke that he didn't invent and big balls to fight kimura. And pretty good PR.

 

[tim18t]

Even when helio was young, he was a fragile weak old man. A sick, sick boy.

 

[triangle killer]

Edit: wrong place

 

[JohnyBoyy]

Funny thing is, with more or less trolling in this thread, the question is quite legit and no one had a slighty aproach to an answer.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I'm going to just post my little essay on this topic from an old thread:

My opinion is that he didn't invent anything, but modified things and did them differently. For example different preferred grips, different strategic preference, different preferences for application of pressure. I don't think even Rorion Gracie can name a technique his father invented.

My theory has always been as follows (seeing as everyone who was around at the time is dead). Maeda taught Carlos for 3 years. That's not enough time to learn everything they knew. And Helio never even learned from Maeda, but Carlos. Over those 3 years Carlos probably learned the techniques themselves, but those of us who have been training for a long time know that the devil is in the details. It's the fine tuning of a technique that seems basic, that makes you an advanced practitioner. You learn the technique early on, but as you get more advanced you learn little minute details and tricks to make it work better.

Carlos, and by extension Helio, could not have picked up all those details in such a short time span, either on the feet or on the ground. In fact perhaps in particular their throwing technique was lacking in the details, leading the Gracies to focus on their groundwork. Those of us who have done judo know that it takes a long time to truly master those throws. Novices who struggle might legitimately think that they're just not strong enough to do the throws, and that perspective can be reinforced if the instruction on those throws is not from an expert. The same can be said for ground techniques. I can't count the times I have seen a smaller student performing a technique wrong, but looking for sympathy as if they're just not strong enough, when in reality they're just not doing wrong.

So you have Carlos doing instruction, with his 3 years of training under Maeda, and no other formal training. Long enough to learn a lot of techniques and use them effectively, but not enough time to pick up all the refinements that Maeda had no doubt developed through his years at the Kodokan and traveling the world exchanging techniques with other cultures. Helio learns from Carlos, either by actual training, or by sheer observation as Helio claimed (although that's hard to swallow). Due to the short time of formal instruction they had, is it that hard to imagine that the two brothers had to fill in the gaps themselves? That is, doing the same techniques, same throws, same submissions, but figuring out the refinements on their own? I think it's not only believable, but rational. And it's also logical to think that some of those things are hard to observe. I remember as a novice grappler watching a lot of high level matches, and not noticing details at the time that now seem obvious. Differences in the way two people do the same technique. I've learned the same with instructors showing the same thing different ways. The way someone applies pressure with their legs is not easily observable just by watching, and I'm guessing these are the "gaps" that Helio and Carlos had to fill in. Not only does that make sense to me, I can't think of any other way that someone with 3 years of training could develop into highly skilled grapplers and teach students to a high degree. Those of us who have observed both arts know that there is often a way of doing the same technique that is more of a BJJ way of doing things, and more of a judo way of doing it, and I think this reflects the historical differences I'm talking about. And I think there are a lot of places where the Gracies missed the boat (the triangle for example).

Regarding the whole modification for the smaller man, and the whole "the Japanese techniques required too much strength," those of us who have been exposed to BJJ and Judo know that's a bunch of crap. Judo is as much about timing, leverage, and off-balancing as BJJ is. Neither should be strength-reliant. And to that extent, we know that the claim that BJJ is more technical and requires less strength than other arts, or that BJJ makes size and strength less relevant, or irrelevant, is nothing but marketing and nonsense. It's not the art, but skill in a legitimate grappling style that allows you to beat a bigger stronger opponent. But to play devil's advocate, I will go back to what I was saying before about how mediocre instruction and lack of technical refinement can make a person think they're just not strong enough to do something, especially if they're a small person. If Helio and Carlos were small guys, and they had trouble with some techniques they learned, it was probably because they hadn't mastered those techniques, not because they weren't strong enough. Maeda had taught them, but hadn't trained Carlos to mastery level, and we all know that when you don't have something perfect, the natural thing to do is to force it the rest of the way. So from the perspective of Helio, who not only didn't learn from Maeda, but probably learned incomplete instructor from his brother, the techniques didn't work for him because he was too small and weak, and the Japanese techniques required that to work. As he and his brothers worked out the details for themselves, figuring out ways to make it work more effectively, the techniques started working for them. If you don't know better, then you've just invented modifications that made these inefficient techniques work for the smaller man, no small victory! Now, many of these details were probably the same modifications Maeda would have eventually taught, because let's face it, if something works it works. Those who have studied the history of grappling probably find it remarkable how different cultures have developed the same techniques completely independently, and there was probably a degree of that at work here too.

And then, at some point Helio must have realized that he had just filled in details that already existed, and that the Japanese techniques already had solved the problems he was encountering in applying them, and that they weren't as strength-based as he thought. But by that time no doubt the Gracie brothers had already been using that as a marketing angle for their style, so they probably just continued it. And beyond that, it's just marketing.

Anyway, I think that's the most logical interpretation regarding the supposed Gracie modifications to Judo that created their style of Jiu Jitsu. I highly doubt anyone will ever be able to point to something specific. And while I think everyone can agree that there's a lot of embellishing and salesmanship in there, I think my interpretation is more logical than everything being outright lies. Otherwise you have to account for the differences between BJJ and Judo even back then, as well as the short amount of training time, in some other way. And personally although I think Helio (and many fighters of that generation from around the world) tend to exaggerate their accomplishments and fabricate historical events to suit their egos, I'm inclined to believe that it's not a bunch of stories outright, but more like actual historical developments skewed to fit his perspectives. I don't think Helio invented any new moves, but I do firmly believe that he worked to modify the things he learned to suit his needs, probably in ways that they had already been modified, but that he didn't know.

 

[tenniswhiz]

guard

To a certain extent.

His sons (back in the early days of MMA/NHB) were a bit more comfortable using the guard in a fight. I saw Royce, Royler, and Rickson all use the guard in fights and all of them were very good (for that time) at avoiding strikes and using the guard to their advantage.

By contrast, in the fights from the late 90's, guys like Wallid and Bittetti would avoid using the guard in MMA, EVER. They would sprawl, turtle, and do whatever they could to avoid ending up on their back, and it cost them both dearly. Sperry was another guy who seemed lost if he couldn't get the TD and get top position (though he actually has a very good guard, just scared to use it in MMA) he would be vulnerable.

Ricardo de la Riva was a Carlson student who made some innovations with the guard, but he also wasn't a real MMA competitor.
I don't know if he had Vale Tudo fights, but the one time he was supposed to compete in MMA, he refused because his opponent had missed weight.

 

[jboles773]

The Japanese, known for being huge, tall, muscle-bound

 

[ozyabbas]

Something that would really help answer this question is to see what Gracie Jiu Jitsu looked like in its early days.

I wonder at what point it started emphasising ground work.

What im guessing is that they found it easier to accomplish the ground techniques than the standing techniques which do take quiet a while to get right. As said by a previous poster, they may have just thought that the technique required strength rather than them not doing the technique correctly.

I think something they may have noticed is that it takes less time to get proficient at ground work than standing techniques.

I believe if you trained a person from scratch for 3 months standing techniques and 3 months ground techniques that they will be able to perform more of the ground techniques on a resisting inexperienced opponent than doing standing techniques on a resisting inexperienced opponent.

They may have realised that and concentrated on ground techniques.

 

[Saenchai]

Why do people still think judo is for big people. The Japanese aren't even big at all. They're under like 5 ft..

 

[slideyfoot]

Pics? I have heard this but can't recall actually seeing the pictures

This one?

Then there's this one of him and Carlos, where he appears to be the larger man: