What techniques did Helio change to better suit the smaller person?

[cc023]

I can make light of myths and propaganda as much as I like. I don't disrespect H

 

[Einarr]

I notice your still talking shit but the only part of my post you didn't reply to is "where do you train?" Huh, that's funny.... I wonder if that's because your a cowardly troll!

Why would I tell some random tool on the internet where I train? About 7,000 kilometers away from California, so you and your ********* husband won't be dropping in any time soon anyway. :icon_neut

I don't care if your joking... Let me guess, you're you a fucking comedian, too? Doubtfully. The fact is you disrespected Helio in text where we can all read it and now your backtracking about any seriousness behind your joke because cowardly trolls don't defend their beliefs.

Stop telling me the same shit over and over and just admit you often have this problem where diarrhea comes spewing from your mouth and you didn't mean to disregard the contributions Helio has made to martial arts.

I'm not backtracking at all. You're just taking a blatantly non-serious post incredibly seriously.

 

[cc023]

Average man worldwide is closer to 150 lbs. 170 lbs as an average is closer to true for the USA but not for Brazil or Japan and especially not in the early 1900s.

You could argue that the average mass of guys training for vale tudo is a bit higher but actual worldwide average weight of an adult male is closer to 150.

This is where the Helio myth starts.

Helio was averge sized. He was only little compared to big guys.

Actually, take an average of the sizes of opponents he faced, not a world-wide average of males.

Oh... I just read your second line... so you did understand what average I was referring to?? Then what was the point of your post? In case I was referring to a worldwide average? That would have been quite a large average considering how many Asian males populate the world.

First, Helio was indeed slightly below the size of the average male in Brazil in the '30s when he was fighting. That's the average male, not the average fighter. Most fighters were at least 10 lbs above the average Brazilian male.

The average fighter there was a lot larger than they are now before the introduction and spread of BJJ, because the smaller guys would just lose to the larger opponents.

You can research all this and figure it out fairly easily, the information is openly available.

Moral of the story, Master Helio was always the smaller opponent.

 

[Zankou]

In my opinion, he developed several novel marketing techniques that were previously unknown to the inscrutable Oriental mind.

His protege, Lloyd Irvin, would later develop the marketing techniques of BJJ even further, realizing a degree of martial sophistication that other "arts" could only envy.

 

[cc023]

Why would I tell some random tool on the internet where I train? About 7,000 kilometers away from California, so you and your ********* husband won't be dropping in any time soon anyway. :icon_neut



I'm not backtracking at all. You're just taking a blatantly non-serious post incredibly seriously.

Why wouldn't you? Your not afraid to talk about how much you train and your skill level, why not shout out your gym?

So, what.... the UK then? We will be there twice this year.... Let me know. I know you think I'm just "a white belt who just saw ufc 1" but I love a friendly grappling match.

Anywho, I'm really bored with this now.... Trust me, I don't take your post or yourself seriously. I just love my main art, which is jiu jitsu, and don't want BJJ culture overtaken by douchebags to the point that the majority of practitioners act like high school wrestlers rather than martial artists. Unfortunately, as sherdog can prove every day, we are already on that path.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

He made the guard a primary, dominant, offensive position, whereas in Judo its more of a last resort sort of thing.

 

[Discipulus]

Why wouldn't you? Your not afraid to talk about how much you train and your skill level, why not shout out your gym?

So, what.... the UK then? We will be there twice this year.... Let me know. I know you think I'm just "a white belt who just saw ufc 1" but I love a friendly grappling match.

Anywho, I'm really bored with this now.... Trust me, I don't take your post or yourself seriously. I just love my main art, which is jiu jitsu, and don't want BJJ culture overtaken by douchebags to the point that the majority of practitioners act like high school wrestlers rather than martial artists. Unfortunately, as sherdog can prove every day, we are already on that path.

You come off like a very unpleasant person here. And someone who doesn't care too much for facts.

 

[cc023]

In my opinion, he developed several novel marketing techniques that were previously unknown to the inscrutable Oriental mind.

His protege, Lloyd Irvin, would later develop the marketing techniques of BJJ even further, realizing a degree of martial sophistication that other "arts" could only envy.

.....making a business model out of an art is not a contribution to the art.

Helio developed much more than "marketing techniques."

LLoyd is a Dalla protege. You can't be a protege of someone whom your belt is 4 lines removed from and whom you've never trained under.

 

[cc023]

He made the guard a primary, dominant, offensive position, whereas in Judo its more of a last resort sort of thing.

^There is a true, notable difference.

I can always count on Sohei.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

I can always count on Sohei.

 

[jdturner11]

Accoridng to Saulo Ribero's "Jiu Jitsu University" Helio used leverage to fight bigger opponents.

 

[cc023]

You come off like a very unpleasant person here. And someone who doesn't care too much for facts.

I come off as a very unpleasant person? Well, that sucks.... And I could care less.

I've been respectful, but I'm not gonna be kind to someone who speaks disrespectfully of not just a deceased man, but a deceased man who is responsible for his art and giving him whatever skills he might possess...

Elaborate on how I seem like "someone who doesn't care too much for facts," since you allege that after quoting a post that didn't bear any debatable facts.

 

[attestedplum]

I come off as a very unpleasant person? Well, that sucks.... And I could care less.

I've been respectful, but I'm not gonna be kind to someone who speaks disrespectfully of not just a deceased man, but a deceased man who is responsible for his art and giving him whatever skills he might possess...

Elaborate on how I seem like "someone who doesn't care too much for facts," since you allege that after quoting a post that didn't bear any debatable facts.

You need to settle down a bit. One poster makes a lighthearted joke and you and your husband are willing to travel across the globe to grapple them? Don't you have anything better to do?

 

[Discipulus]

I come off as a very unpleasant person? Well, that sucks.... And I could care less.

I've been respectful, but I'm not gonna be kind to someone who speaks disrespectfully of not just a deceased man, but a deceased man who is responsible for his art and giving him whatever skills he might possess...

Elaborate on how I seem like "someone who doesn't care too much for facts," since you allege that after quoting a post that didn't bear any debatable facts.

You haven't really been respectful, actually. You've been pretty abrasive in just about every encounter with other posters in this thread. No one is disrespecting Helio. They're questioning the truth of the many claims made about him. I think that by now we should be able to learn enough from millennia of history and deduce that the memory of a man is rarely an accurate depiction of the man himself. Legends get inflated, and that is what the people you've been arguing with believe happened with Helio Gracie.

Also, it's hard to say with certainty that Helio is responsible for BJJ. Certainly he was very influential in it's inception, but there were a number of people involved that you've given no credit to whatsoever. Does Carlos not have an equal hand in the creation of the style?

The whole argument blew up because Einarr made a joke poking fun at the notion that judo is a brute force art and BJJ is not. You ought to know that neither art is based on brute force, just as both can benefit from the application of strength. That's true with any martial art. Technique beats strength, but technical strength beats all. The case appears to be that Helio simply did not have the proper instruction or understanding of the mechanics of the throws, and so began to specialize in groundwork and submissions. I'm sure there were some things that were developed based on his new focus, but his legend is certainly inflated far beyond its due.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

The case appears to be that Helio simply did not have the proper instruction or understanding of the mechanics of the throws, and so began to specialize in groundwork and submissions.

I don't believe that's the case at all. Helio seems to have taught many more standing techniques than most sport BJJ schools teach today, and all of the old school Gracies seem to have had respectable throwing games.

 

[Leify]

I don't believe that's the case at all. Helio seems to have taught many more standing techniques than most sport BJJ schools teach today, and all of the old school Gracies seem to have had respectable throwing games.

Helio was supposed to be something like 5'8", 138 lbs (quote from Ryron on Twitter). If that's true, depending on the size of his training mates, there are certainly a good few throws that a relatively small man would not be able to pull off without a high level of technique. Not all throws obviously, but potentially enough for a person to say, "this isn't working for me, and I'd rather just sweep you."

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Helio was supposed to be something like 5'8", 138 lbs (quote from Ryron on Twitter). If that's true, depending on the size of his training mates, there are certainly a good few throws that a relatively small man would not be able to pull off without a high level of technique. Not all throws obviously, but potentially enough for a person to say, "this isn't working for me."

Yes, I understand that. If you read my post on the first page you'll see my thoughts on the matter. My theory is that he had to fill in the gaps himself.

 

[Leify]

Yes, I understand that. If you read my post on the first page you'll see my thoughts on the matter. My theory is that he had to fill in the gaps himself.

Yes, I read that post the other day. I just don't fully agree with that assessment, assuming I have not misconstrued it somehow.

I suspect it's possibly a mish mash of the two ideas discussed in these last posts, that originally he did not have the technique necessary, turned towards guard based techniques that offered more easily attainable leverages, but still recognized the benefit of tachi waza as his proficiency in them increased and so continued to teach them.

If at the time, grappling was more focused on being on the top and smashing as in Judo, then Helio would have possibly shifted the paradigm that being on the bottom is not effective, while his family was focusing on top games.

 

[richmFTW]

LOL I love this thread...

 

[Discipulus]

I don't believe that's the case at all. Helio seems to have taught many more standing techniques than most sport BJJ schools teach today, and all of the old school Gracies seem to have had respectable throwing games.

Oh, I think you're right on that count. But the Gracies' version of the story says that Helio found that throws were too reliant on brute strength, and so began to focus very heavily on the ground game. Would you agree that most judo throws require brute strength? I was under the impression that Helio just didn't have the level of instruction necessary to really get all of the standup aspects of the art. Certainly not to the level that Maeda did, for example, as a pure judoka. So he filled in the gaps, as you say, and it turned out that he found it easier to understand leverage on the ground than on the feet.