Opinion What is "post-Liberalism"?

[luckyshot]

A recent episode of the Ezra Klein show made me think of something that one of my IRL right-wing friends said: "I don't know what Democrats are running on except abortion."

The reason abortion is such a lightening rod in this election is that it is a symbol for the greater ideological shift happening in American politics. Klein's argument is that for a long time "freedom" has been at the center of our politics with the Republicans traditionally championing negative freedoms (the gov't not fucking with your right to X) while the Democrats have championed positive freedoms (the gov't helping you to be able to Y).

But that era of politics is over. What this election is now about is liberalism (traditional notions of personal freedom) vs. post-liberalism (JD Vance's Project 2025 version of MAGA that doesn't really speak in terms of personal freedoms at all).

I think it is a pretty compelling argument. It explains why Democrats are able to bring in so many traditional conservatives at this moment. The traditional conservatives may disagree with Democratic policies, but they at least agree on the terms on the debate... which MAGA rejects. It also explains why MAGA is able to attract some traditional Democratic voters that never self-identified as "liberal."

Personally, here's something I don't understand that maybe one of you brainy types can help me out with: What is the different between "post-liberalism" and fascism?

 

[Captain Tenneal]

There should be limits to personal freedom. As it turns out most people are subject to their environments, and if the environment is complete trash you need a leadership class to step in and set a vision or a destination for that relative population and environment. Both parties are terrible at this, because we are so rigorously capitalist, most of our politicians will only run on "freedoms" despite everyone already being free or lowering useless tax despite tax not really mattering. It's a sham really and the east will likely win because of it

 

[Lead]

Calling it post liberalism gives it more credit than it deserves. Illiberalism works just fine.

 

[nostradumbass]

Whose terms are you using? Is this Ezra Klein saying "post-liberalism" or is this you? I haven't heard them describe themselves as "post-liberals", so it's kind of a silly question to use a term that you use for your opponents, then assume everyone just agrees, ipso facto fascism.

Apparently Ezra Klein is back in propaganda mode. Just like 6 weeks ago before the coup, he was on a podcast with Tim Miller saying that a lot of top democrats have told him off the record that they'd already accepted Trump winning and said it's actually not that bad and Trump really isn't that bad to work with or negotiate with. But I guess now the dems are pushing a new candidate, so it's back to "OMG, he's a fascist".

Not really sure what this "Trump/Vance don't want freedom" is based on. I assume you're just talking about the human sacrifice rituals, which is the only "freedom" the democrats seem to believe in. They're pro censorship, pro gun bans, for higher taxation, support bans, restrictions or heavy taxation of all kind of modern conveniences, were pro lockdown, pro vaccine mandates, mask mandates. Not sure which "freedoms" you're claiming Trump and Vance are coming for.

 

[Jack V Savage]

"Postliberalism" sounds like it's a move to the future, while "fascism" sounds like it's going backwards. Not a big difference beyond that.

Whose terms are you using? Is this Ezra Klein saying "post-liberalism" or is this you? I haven't heard them describe themselves as "post-liberals", so it's kind of a silly question to use a term that you use for your opponents, then assume everyone just agrees, ipso facto fascism.

"Postliberalism" is a self-applied term.

For example, Patrick Deneen wrote a book called Regime Change: Towards a Postliberal Future. Hugely influential (Vance particularly was promoting it), and a big part of the trendy GOP hack term "the regime" (RDS and his creepy team were big on that, and it filtered to a lot of the dumbest WRers).

Not really sure what this "Trump/Vance don't want freedom" is based on. I assume you're just talking about the human sacrifice rituals, which is the only "freedom" the democrats seem to believe in.

Vance wanted to arrest a WaPo columnist for a column critical of Trump, and Trump has said that criticizing rulings he likes is or should be illegal (he's said both is and should be). It's pretty clear that neither of them have liberal values, and anti-freedom is a big theme of the current GOP. No one serious takes the absurd claim that it's actually liberals who want censorship seriously.

 

[nostradumbass]

"Postliberalism" sounds like it's a move to the future, while "fascism" sounds like it's going backwards. Not a big difference beyond that.


"Postliberalism" is a self-applied term.

For example, Patrick Deneen wrote a book called Regime Change: Towards a Postliberal Future. Hugely influential (Vance particularly was promoting it), and a big part of the trendy GOP hack term "the regime" (RDS and his creepy team were big on that, and it filtered to a lot of the dumbest WRers).



Vance wanted to arrest a WaPo columnist for a column critical of Trump, and Trump has said that criticizing rulings he doesn't like is or should be illegal (he's said both is and should be). It's pretty clear that neither of them have liberal values, and anti-freedom is a big theme of the current GOP. No one serious takes the absurd claim that it's actually liberals who want censorship seriously.

"Criticizing rulings he doesn't like"? He wants to arrest people for criticizing things that he himself doesn't like?

 

[Jack V Savage]

"Criticizing rulings he doesn't like"? He wants to arrest people for criticizing things that he himself doesn't like?

Sorry, rulings he likes. Typo and fixed but it should have been obvious.

Nice ducking, BTW.

 

[Lead]

Apparently Ezra Klein is back in propaganda mode. Just like 6 weeks ago before the coup, he was on a podcast with Tim Miller saying that a lot of top democrats have told him off the record that they'd already accepted Trump winning and said it's actually not that bad and Trump really isn't that bad to work with or negotiate with. But I guess now the dems are pushing a new candidate, so it's back to "OMG, he's a fascist".

Do you have that link? I’d be surprised if this is in proper context.

 

[Limeade]

I'm not familiar with the term. Do you mean neoliberalism which is mostly about free trade and market deregulation?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm not familiar with the term. Do you mean neoliberalism which is mostly about free trade and market deregulation?

No, it's postliberalism, which is just a less-threatening way to describe illiberalism or fascism. The most sympathetic way to put it is that they believe we should focus on getting good results and not on procedural stuff. So like if you have to throw out civil liberties to reduce crime, that should be done. If you need to censor bad opinions to have more unity, that should be done. If elections lead to bad policy, we should keep good leaders in place. If equal rights for women destroy family structures, we shouldn't have that. If academic freedom leads to college students becoming liberal, we should get rid of it. Etc. RDS attempted to put some of that into practice in Florida, and Project 2025 is big on how to make it work.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Democrats have championed positive freedoms (the gov't helping you to be able to Y).

By restricting guns, mandating Covid vaccines, censoring speech online, draconian lock down measures, creating laws to enforce pronouns, ban gas powered cars.. etc. Sure...

 

[nostradumbass]

Do you have that link? I’d be surprised if this is in proper context.

Not sure how to imbed videos from my phone, but it was the bulwark podcast from early July.

 

[BROWNPRIDE]

Whose terms are you using? Is this Ezra Klein saying "post-liberalism" or is this you? I haven't heard them describe themselves as "post-liberals", so it's kind of a silly question to use a term that you use for your opponents, then assume everyone just agrees, ipso facto fascism.

Apparently Ezra Klein is back in propaganda mode. Just like 6 weeks ago before the coup, he was on a podcast with Tim Miller saying that a lot of top democrats have told him off the record that they'd already accepted Trump winning and said it's actually not that bad and Trump really isn't that bad to work with or negotiate with. But I guess now the dems are pushing a new candidate, so it's back to "OMG, he's a fascist".

Not really sure what this "Trump/Vance don't want freedom" is based on. I assume you're just talking about the human sacrifice rituals, which is the only "freedom" the democrats seem to believe in. They're pro censorship, pro gun bans, for higher taxation, support bans, restrictions or heavy taxation of all kind of modern conveniences, were pro lockdown, pro vaccine mandates, mask mandates. Not sure which "freedoms" you're claiming Trump and Vance are coming for.

Man grow up and stop drinking the orange kool-Aid

 

[luckyshot]

By restricting guns, mandating Covid vaccines, censoring speech online, draconian lock down measures, creating laws to enforce pronouns, ban gas powered cars.. etc. Sure...

These are examples of limitations on negative freedoms. This is a traditional conservative criticism of Democrats. The "post-liberal" argument is something quite different.

Whose terms are you using? Is this Ezra Klein saying "post-liberalism" or is this you? I haven't heard them describe themselves as "post-liberals", so it's kind of a silly question to use a term that you use for your opponents, then assume everyone just agrees, ipso facto fascism.

Apparently Ezra Klein is back in propaganda mode. Just like 6 weeks ago before the coup, he was on a podcast with Tim Miller saying that a lot of top democrats have told him off the record that they'd already accepted Trump winning and said it's actually not that bad and Trump really isn't that bad to work with or negotiate with. But I guess now the dems are pushing a new candidate, so it's back to "OMG, he's a fascist".

Not really sure what this "Trump/Vance don't want freedom" is based on. I assume you're just talking about the human sacrifice rituals, which is the only "freedom" the democrats seem to believe in. They're pro censorship, pro gun bans, for higher taxation, support bans, restrictions or heavy taxation of all kind of modern conveniences, were pro lockdown, pro vaccine mandates, mask mandates. Not sure which "freedoms" you're claiming Trump and Vance are coming for.

Not my term. "Post liberal" is a term explicitly adopted in some online right circles, including by JD Vance.

Weiterleitungshinweis

I'm not familiar with the term. Do you mean neoliberalism which is mostly about free trade and market deregulation?

No. See the link above.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Do you have that link? I’d be surprised if this is in proper context.

It's mostly a lie.

Here:

Ezra Klein: A Path to Defeat

Top Democrats say they don't see a way for Biden to win, and some are resigning themselves to being the resistance against Trump, despite the threat he poses to our democracy.

www.thebulwark.com

He said one guy (Jared Golden) expressed the view that Trump winning would be bad, but he's ordinary bad (he can try to work with him where he agrees and block him where he doesn't), rather than a unique threat, which Klein correctly believed. Klein said that the guy's view was unusual but that by not trying to replace Biden (who he thought was on a path to defeat), he thought Democrats were acting as if it were right.

Search the transcript for Golden to see.

 

[Lead]

It's mostly a lie.

Here:

Ezra Klein: A Path to Defeat

Top Democrats say they don't see a way for Biden to win, and some are resigning themselves to being the resistance against Trump, despite the threat he poses to our democracy.

www.thebulwark.com

He said one guy (Jared Golden) expressed the view that Trump winning would be bad, but he's ordinary bad (he can try to work with him where he agrees and block him where he doesn't), rather than a unique threat, which Klein correctly believed. Klein said that the guy's view was unusual but that by not trying to replace Biden (who he thought was on a path to defeat), he thought Democrats were acting as if it were right.

Search the transcript for Golden to see.

Thanks, I was on mobile so was just trying to listen through but couldn't keep my attention on it.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Thanks, I was on mobile so was just trying to listen through but couldn't keep my attention on it.

It's actually interesting. Klein said basically that there's an argument that if Dems really believed that Trump was a unique threat to democracy (which he thought they should), they would push to replace Biden, though he acknowledges that it doesn't work like that in the real world. But then there was pressure on Biden to step down, and he did. But hacks see it as Klein changing his mind? WTF? These people don't care if their posts make any sense. That's putting aside the initial false claim about what Klein said.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

So true. The American left is all about positive freedoms like eroding gun and free speech rights. So true lmao

 

[luckyshot]

So true. The American left is all about positive freedoms like eroding gun and free speech rights. So true lmao

The thread is not that long and this has been covered. These are traditional Republican arguments about "negative freedoms" (freedom from X).

The point is that this is not the main terms of debate that Trump, Vance, & co. are bringing to this election.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

The thread is not that long and this has been covered. These are traditional Republican arguments about "negative freedoms" (freedom from X).

The point is that this is not the debate that Trump, Vance, & co. are bringing to this election.

I'm covering it again because it bears repeating. You guys are the authoritarians constantly attacking people's rights.

The only rights you care about is the right to murder babies and the right to cut your dick off and wear a dress.