What has BKFC taught us about boxing as a self defence art?

[franklinstower]

Boxing is good for self defence unless it goes to a clinch or ground.

WC had a similar rep for self defence and real world use which so far didnt translate to combat sports.

Hitting hard and being able to take a hit is paramount, so we come back to sparring as the key not the style.

WC is a much deeper system than boxing, but they can learn some things from them also. I really am hopeful we can see a decent WC guy compete in BKFC at some point and show than hands and parrying aspect of the system in application.

Also palm strikes require training, if u practice them good but I doubt most boxers do that. It adds new angles also which is an overlooked part of using them.



I despise the excessively linear application of wing chun. It is a real deficiency of the traditional training, perhaps adequate for facing northern long bridge kung fu but inadequate today. There is so much potential within WC it is insane but it requires better training methodology to fulfil this. Decent sparring and using more of the wing chun tools than straight blast is a start.

I train xing yi and my friend competes using xing yi as his standup. He has competed in Muay Thai tournaments and MMA too using xing yi.

The biggest blockage is not having gyms with lots of people to spar all the time and the collective knowledge that comes from that atmosphere.

 

[Blake_UK]

TheMaster said:

WC had a similar rep for self defence and real world use which so far didnt translate to combat sports.

Unlike boxing which has been consistently proven as the best striking base art - both in competitions and in real world applications.

Hitting hard and being able to take a hit is paramount, so we come back to sparring as the key not the style.

That's what TMA guys keep telling themselves but we all know it isn't true. Yes there is better WC that has gotten rid of the fluff and trains properly with sparring/pad/bagwork etc etc but the fact is certain styles (boxing/MT/BJJ etc) have been shown numerous times to be superior in competitions and 'the streets'. And the funny things is almost every time you see striking TMAs that have been slimmed down to what is useful (modern/street/combat versions etc) they essentially just resemble kickboxing with a couple of 'signature' moves to convince practitioners that it is somehow not just kickboxing.

WC is a much deeper system than boxing

If by that you mean it has a far wider range of inferior flashy moves - the vast majority of which are close to useless in a real fight and take years to master - then sure. More likely you are just showing your ignorance of the depth of skill involved in high level boxing.

Boxing is good for self defence unless it goes to a clinch or ground.

True. Which is why (as had already been said multiple times) you need to cross train with a good grappling art.
Boxing + BJJ/Wrestling/Judo/Sambo will hold you in good stead as a foundation. There are certainly some moves from arts like WC that are useful and worth knowing - but the point is those are add-ons to solid base arts like boxing.

 

[spacetime]

From my experiences, Boxers do not care about how pretty you look and if you're feet are at a 25 degree angle

Boxing instructors emphasizes relaxation, limitation of residual, jerky, telegraphed movement, and power! There is a dogma but it tends to revolve around everything except the punch itself, if that make sense. That’s why it's the sweet science.

Very little is about trajectory, foot placement, etc.

 

[Kickzilla]

Good advice.

 

[StanClarker]

Good advice.

Guy looks great. In practice.

 

[Dexter]

MMA vs boxing (bareknuckle)

 

[eternaldarkness]

Guy looks great. In practice.

Watch him fight.

 

[Cole train]

What i noticed in my bouncing days was that guys who had experience in this street stuff really didnt care about this what stuff works, what not, what technique should you use etc

They would swing, win/lose and go home and not think about it further

And personally i agree

 

[StanClarker]

Watch him fight.

OK. Link?

 

[hillelslovak87]

Here is a shopworn Bert Cooper vs. the British bareknuckle champ

 

[eternaldarkness]

OK. Link?

Just look up "bazooka" Joe he's a kick boxer.

 

[StanClarker]

Just look up "bazooka" Joe he's a kick boxer.

Will do.

 

[TheMaster]

Here is a shopworn Bert Cooper vs. the British bareknuckle champ

The thread was about how sport boxing translates to BK not the reverse. Different games and your clip demonstrates nothing. Could Bert Cooper do anything in an ugly scrappy BK fight without his hands breaking or face being cut is a different story. Yes he would still be dangerous but I am sure it would be alot closer.

TheMaster said:

WC had a similar rep for self defence and real world use which so far didnt translate to combat sports.

Unlike boxing which has been consistently proven as the best striking base art - both in competitions and in real world applications.

Hitting hard and being able to take a hit is paramount, so we come back to sparring as the key not the style.

That's what TMA guys keep telling themselves but we all know it isn't true. Yes there is better WC that has gotten rid of the fluff and trains properly with sparring/pad/bagwork etc etc but the fact is certain styles (boxing/MT/BJJ etc) have been shown numerous times to be superior in competitions and 'the streets'. And the funny things is almost every time you see striking TMAs that have been slimmed down to what is useful (modern/street/combat versions etc) they essentially just resemble kickboxing with a couple of 'signature' moves to convince practitioners that it is somehow not just kickboxing.

WC is a much deeper system than boxing

If by that you mean it has a far wider range of inferior flashy moves - the vast majority of which are close to useless in a real fight and take years to master - then sure. More likely you are just showing your ignorance of the depth of skill involved in high level boxing.

Boxing is good for self defence unless it goes to a clinch or ground.

True. Which is why (as had already been said multiple times) you need to cross train with a good grappling art.
Boxing + BJJ/Wrestling/Judo/Sambo will hold you in good stead as a foundation. There are certainly some moves from arts like WC that are useful and worth knowing - but the point is those are add-ons to solid base arts like boxing.

This is just hilarious. What's funny is the level of mental gymnastics you need to say boxing is better than WC for self defence for which there is very little evidence.

Pure boxing is utter trash in mma and this has been proven repeatedly. It needs to be heavily modified, from the stance, footwork, addition of clinch fighting and elbows to even make it work on the feet in mma.
In other words boxing has to basically become a different style altogether to have any prayer of being effective.
And many of those elements are included in WC already, but they seldom get sparred with is the issue.

It is a fabrication that boxing is a good base. The base is generally wrestling and clinching in mma with some MT and supplementary boxing as add ons, and kickboxing distancing and range.

In BKFC, pure boxing is also surprisingly lacking.

WC does not have near the competitive edge of thousands of gyms around the world and competitions that make boxing what it is.

If it did it would be a scary prospect.
But the base art is so much deeper and more broadly combat applicable than boxing.
When trained with live sparring you have a Tony Fergusson style fighter as a result. Now imagine a real scenario where you don't have a giant ring to run around and you have the in your face WC approach in a close range and short, violent confrontation.

 

[Sinister]

^lolwut

 

[TheMaster]

^lolwut

Pure boxing in mma



Pure WC in mma



Ok so both pretty bad just by themselves, except for with WC once you learn takedown defence you already have elbows, knees, oblique kicks, hand parrying and trapping and some clinching. Did I mention palm strikes for the street and a safer punching action for BK punches also?

 

[Sinister]

I dont even know where to begin, you have a severely crippled understanding of boxing, demonstrated by your use of a glorified circus sideshow fight as an example.

In my lifetime I've taught both Gung Fu and boxing. I've taught boxers and MMA fighters. I have also provided some of the only validating examples around here of Wing Chun NOT being utter nonsense. But you're fuckin retarded

 

[TheMaster]

I dont even know where to begin, you have a severely crippled understanding of boxing, demonstrated by your use of a glorified circus sideshow fight as an example.

In my lifetime I've taught both Gung Fu and boxing. I've taught boxers and MMA fighters. I have also provided some of the only validating examples around here of Wing Chun NOT being utter nonsense. But you're fuckin retarded

Only a fuc*#ard with no idea what they are talking about would hold the premise that Wing Chun as a system is 'utter nonsense' so no need for u to 'disprove' your theory einstein with your supposed 'validating examples' lol

You lump 'gung fu' in one category also when it refers to about 30 different style.

So rather than listing your little teaching experience why don't you actually debate the actual points I made as a longtime martial artist and follower of mma and boxing.

1. Pure boxing is utter garbage in mma - pretty indesputable but this applies to most pure standup arts to varying degrees.

2. Grappling + a heavily modified version of boxing integrated with MT, kickboxing and standing grappling can be effective. Whether this still counts as 'boxing' is highly debatable.

3. WC does not generally spar or compete or cross train in mma so there is very little to compare directly.

4. WC is a much more comprehensive system than boxing that doesn't limit itself to gloved fist punches and has many tools that are widely used and trained in mma already in various styles.

5. For self defence it has even more applications since it was designed for that environment, unlike modern sport boxing. So it's fundamentals will prepare one better overall for a real world scenario.

Now rather than screaming like a 10 year old schoolgirl why don't you actually try to answer the points.

 

[ironkhan57]

Only a fuc*#ard with no idea what they are talking about would hold the premise that Wing Chun as a system is 'utter nonsense' so no need for u to 'disprove' your theory einstein with your supposed 'validating examples' lol

You lump 'gung fu' in one category also when it refers to about 30 different style.

So rather than listing your little teaching experience why don't you actually debate the actual points I made as a longtime martial artist and follower of mma and boxing.

1. Pure boxing is utter garbage in mma - pretty indesputable but this applies to most pure standup arts to varying degrees.

2. Grappling + a heavily modified version of boxing integrated with MT, kickboxing and standing grappling can be effective. Whether this still counts as 'boxing' is highly debatable.

3. WC does not generally spar or compete or cross train in mma so there is very little to compare directly.

4. WC is a much more comprehensive system than boxing that doesn't limit itself to gloved fist punches and has many tools that are widely used and trained in mma already in various styles.

5. For self defence it has even more applications since it was designed for that environment, unlike modern sport boxing. So it's fundamentals will prepare one better overall for a real world scenario.

Now rather than screaming like a 10 year old schoolgirl why don't you actually try to answer the points.

I honestly hope someone rocks on the streetz so bad u get put in a coma. Even when ppl agree with some of your points u still say there haters lol. Theres really no hope for u.

 

[StanClarker]

I honestly hope someone rocks on the streetz so bad u get put in a coma. Even when ppl agree with some of your points u still say there haters lol. Theres really no hope for u.

<{monica}>Wing chun... the TSF pretending embrace what this is... from boxers. That's a big LOL.

Keyrist, they flipped out when I posted a couple of karate videos....

ps. Still losing @ randori....

 

[StanClarker]

Good advice.

Get into this in about a minute. Footwork. I like this trainer.