What does a Brown Belt mean in BJJ

[Knock Out Ned]

P.S. I always go 100%.

Me too

he knows the difference between rolling in a gym and rolling in a competition.

Nicely put

 

[Uchi Mata]

I stop reading these threads the minute someone says "submitted in training". Anyone with experience knows this doesn't mean squat, given any of a dozen different factors.

What makes a brown belt, you ask? Well for one, he doesn't EVER "train" at 100%. And two, he knows the difference between rolling in a gym and rolling in a competition.

Go train, guys. Go learn, go prioritize, and stop looking to make notches on your belts.

What makes you think that? Most brown and black belts I know train at full speed almost all the time. I almost always go 100% myself. Not because I'm terribly concerned with submitting my training partners, but because I want to get better and the best way to do that is train near your current max most of the time.

 

[one.armed.jack]

What makes you think that? Most brown and black belts I know train at full speed almost all the time. I almost always go 100% myself. Not because I'm terribly concerned with submitting my training partners, but because I want to get better and the best way to do that is train near your current max most of the time.

Should you go 80-90% against guys your level during limited competition prep? Sure. But if you're training at full blast all the time, you're doing something very, VERY wrong.

Black belts who go 100% against blue/purple belts? That's crazy. What could they possibly get out of that, other than the gratification of "winning" practice?

Going 100% all the time greatly increases the risk of inadvertent injury. Guys who are innovating and/or winning tournaments cannot possibly sustain that pace if they want to stay on the mats all day.

Have you ever seen Marcelo roll? He picks up the pace when necessary, but that guy is one cool cucumber most of the time, especially when going against guys lower than his level (which I suppose is most everybody). I've watched Roger train, the Mendes bros train, plenty of other world champs and top-tier guys train. They definitely ramp their games up at points or during certain sessions, but most often, they're not going all out. Certainly not with lower ranks.

Top guys know that in order to get better, they have to roll thoughtfully. And that's done at 40-50%, max. Combine that with small doses of high-intensity rolling and you have the mindset of a champion.

The idea of training at your max to improve your game is fine, if what you're trying to improve is your explosiveness and sport-specific cardio. But it's not going to grow your game or improve your technique. And it's certainly not a strategy for long-term sustainability.

 

[lechien]

[YT]1wiTILJAPWE[/YT]

 

[Calibur]

[YT]1wiTILJAPWE[/YT]

Lol.

.......

*Silence*

 

[deadlizard]

That video totally contradicts what one.arm.jack says? Should we believe Marcelo in that video? Or believe what a poster on Sherdog says about Marcelo?

Tough choice.

 

[Calibur]

That video totally contradicts what one.arm.jack says? Should we believe Marcelo in that video? Or believe what a poster on Sherdog says about Marcelo?

Tough choice.

I dunno.

I mean...how much can Marcelo really know about his own training?

Surely he hasn't seen as many matches as we have.

 

[oyaji poi]

[YT]1wiTILJAPWE[/YT]

Yo! That was awesome watching Marcelo switch it up from rolling like a blue to murdering the man like a pro. He seriously fucked that dude up in like 15 seconds.

I have nothing else to contribute to this thread.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That video totally contradicts what one.arm.jack says? Should we believe Marcelo in that video? Or believe what a poster on Sherdog says about Marcelo?

Tough choice.

It cracks me up to that he specifically mentioned Atos. Yeah, the Mendes bros don't destroy their blue belts during class. Ya got me there. But watch any training between higher level competitive guys at Atos, they're trying to destroy each other. Unless there's a massive gap in level, you should be working very, very hard all the time. Frankly I'd be insulted if a black belt went easy on me, it would mean I wasn't pushing him enough.

 

[Calibur]

Caution. Long post.

TL/DR?: I agree with the sentiment, but it's more complicated than that.

Meh. This hasn't really happened in Judo, and it's been around longer than BJJ. Competition really keeps you honest, because even the non-competitors usually roll with some competitive guys and understand the difference between serious competitors at a belt level and hobbyists at a belt level. In Judo you do have guys who get their black belts for time in grade, teaching kids, refereeing, etc. but they know they're not stone cold killers and are usually very open about it. I don't really have a problem with people getting belts based upon how close they are to their own potential (even if they can't tap competitive blue belts) as long as everyone understands why they're getting their belt and what it means. Ultimately belts are a sign of knowledge more than skill IMO, it's not like we take away black belts from old masters when their ability to roll competitively declines. If you want to know who has the best skills in BJJ, look at the Mundials podium. There is much, much less delusion in BJJ and you typically don't have ridiculous pissing contests over rank whenever people from different schools train together, so I think we're still doing okay.

I think the exact thing happened in Judo. I do joint grappling sparring with a plethora of judo guys a few times a week at several locations. Usually wearing their black belts. The amount of skill each black belt has varies so wildly it feels like they're doing different arts. I can objectively say that some Judo black belts I have trained with in Japan have been pretty terrible, yet I have trained with several Judo black belts in this country who are so good it's almost as if they have some kind of reality altering mutant powers.

I'm not joking.

Point is, even though the worst highly ranked judoka are in Japan (in STRICTLY my opinion) I can make an easy argument that the best are here too. Extremely high ceiling for talent, but because of market saturation, there is a low basement too. That happened with BJJ in Brazil years ago and I think it's starting to happen in the US as well.

I don't think anyone is talking about stripping rank of guys who are old and have acquired wear and tear. That's why we have age divisions. I used to hope that belts could be a demonstration of knowledge before anything else, but I don't think that's true anymore. Seen too many situations where a person could tell you how to do a picture perfect armbar, but didn't have the physical mechanics to do it live. Muscle memory matters. You don't have to be a world beater, but I am confident that if proper time is spent training, than everyone picks up the skill that we're talking about.

When people talk about belts being watered down, I always chuckle. I don't think belts are watered down, I just think the top guys are so much better now than they used to be that it creates a false sense of inferiority on part of lower belts. Go back to the times when belts were so sacred, maybe the late 90s and early 2000s in the US, and spar with a blue or purple belt from that time period. Most modern blue and purple belts would whip their asses, because the sport has developed so much technically since then.

BJJ used to have an aura of invincibility because nobody knew anything about it, and that led to veneration of people with comparatively minor expertise by today's standards. Today's blue belts aren't comparing themselves to TKD LARPers, they're comparing themselves to professional grapplers which is a species which didn't exist back in the day when belts were 'pure'. I started BJJ in 2002, and I can tell you that my purple belt self would destroy my purple belt instructor at the time, even though I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination. Yet at the time the guy was basically a god, there were maybe 3 purple belts in the state and I don't know if we had any black belts. The closest one was probably in Chicago (I was living in Indiana at the time).

Just everyone have a little perspective on the days when belts were really hard to get. It's not that guys were a lot better then, quite the opposite in fact. If belts are easier to get now at least part of that is that it's much easier to get good now because there are plenty of schools with competent BB instructors and lots of good upper belt training partners.

For the record, I don't think black belts should take ten years to get. I think with the rescources, class schedules, open mats, and information sharing people should be able to be at what we used to consider "black belt level" in six. Particularly if they have access to a gym with experienced guys 5 days a week.

I don't think belts are being watered down. I think we are in a weird paradox where the majority of people who train, don't compete. Attendence of those guys pays the bills. They get promoted by a standard that didn't exist in the US (but already existed in Brazil) a decade ago while competitors contradictively get held back so they can win more medals. Purple belt mundial winners would trounce most black belts from a decade ago. Hell, blue belt medalists would too. Those guys though, the guys who quit their job/drop out of school to train twice a day and do S&C on top of it? I don't think they can be used as the example of "normal" BJJ participant.

 

[oyaji poi]

Caution. Long post.

TL/DR?: I agree with the sentiment, but it's more complicated than that.



I think the exact thing happened in Judo. I do joint grappling sparring with a plethora of judo guys a few times a week at several locations. Usually wearing their black belts. The amount of skill each black belt has varies so wildly it feels like they're doing different arts. I can objectively say that some Judo black belts I have trained with in Japan have been pretty terrible, yet I have trained with several Judo black belts in this country who are so good it's almost as if they have some kind of reality altering mutant powers.

I'm not joking.

Point is, even though the worst highly ranked judoka are in Japan (in STRICTLY my opinion) I can make an easy argument that the best are here too. Extremely high ceiling for talent, but because of market saturation, there is a low basement too. That happened with BJJ in Brazil years ago and I think it's starting to happen in the US as well.

For what its worth I can back up these experiences with judoka in Japan. After two years of no-gi I dominated a judo BB the first week I trained in a gi. It was his first week at BJJ as well. He was a college kid and was tough in that he could take a beating but that was about it. He took his BB off and put on a white belt after that.

Fast forward a few years and I'm getting fucked up by a old school Japanese Navy judo BB - no-gi. Dude was strong and fierce and had a super simple game plan based around the kimura and footlocks. Interestingly, he refused to do BJJ in a gi for fear of messing up his judo game.


Both were judo BB, both were tough, and both had technically sound judo. As in, they could do judo moves well. But one could hang with purple and brown belts while the other couldn't survive with blue belts.

As Calibur said, there's a lot of depth at the black belt level. Many sound technicians too, but not all can provide tough competition. It seems natural that a similar phenomena would happen in the States.

 

[kying418]

It cracks me up to that he specifically mentioned Atos. Yeah, the Mendes bros don't destroy their blue belts during class. Ya got me there. But watch any training between higher level competitive guys at Atos, they're trying to destroy each other. Unless there's a massive gap in level, you should be working very, very hard all the time. Frankly I'd be insulted if a black belt went easy on me, it would mean I wasn't pushing him enough.

I still agree with one-armed Jack- I've seen Marcelo roll hundreds of times.

Despite what he says in the video, I have seldom seen him go that hard in training - especially if it was not for competition training.

Then again, there usually is a massive gap in level- even among black belts and him.

 

[one.armed.jack]

My original point absolutely stands and that video does nothing to shake it. Of course Marcelo trains hard. Of course the Atos guys train hard. But it's not an all-the-time thing.

Marcelo is specifically making the point that he has to challenge himself with every match, to push himself even against people well below his level. But that isn't just a matter of going balls-to-the-wall physically. There are a lot of ways to challenge yourself against a lower belt and that's the greater point.

And Marcelo is one of the great innovators of the sport, as are the Mendes bros. There's no way to get that good, in that way, if your only focus is to go full-out every time, to beat up every training partner, regardless of level.

This whole thread is about blue belts beating up brown and black belts and the point I keep trying to make is that what happens in training is not necessarily indicative of competition skill. I would wager that most top guys are not letting themselves get submitted much, if ever. But they're also not shredding every belt they roll with just because they can. And they have the ability to scale between the two levels as needed and the awareness to know when each approach is best.

Now to be fair, I will say that different approaches work for different people, at least in terms of high-level competition. I've trained with a couple of guys who are at the top of their games right now, winning and submitting left and right at the highest levels of competition. One of them is a drilling and conditioning monster, and when he rolls live, it's usually at 80% or higher. He also doesn't like to roll with anyone below his general level and as a result, his training matches consistently provide him with a good challenge.

The other guy is much more relaxed in his approach. He turns it up all the time, and loves a real battle, but also enjoys putting himself in a bad or unusual spot against lesser training partners, in order to test himself. He handicaps himself all the time, for the purpose of experimentation and growth.

Both guys are great and tough as nails. I personally favor the latter approach, but I respect the hell out of the former. I also think it's a more sustainable one for the vast majority of grapplers who are never going to be competitors at the highest level.

I still agree with one-armed Jack- I've seen Marcelo roll hundreds of times.

Despite what he says in the video, I have seldom seen him go that hard in training - especially if it was not for competition training.

Then again, there usually is a massive gap in level- even among black belts and him.

Thanks, kying. I think what I forget sometimes, when I'm on these boards, is that most people haven't had the good fortune we've had, to spend years and years training around top-level competitors and coaches. They see the highlight-reel stuff and assume that's how it is, all the time, without realizing how the rest of the process works, how these guys really develop the skills they then harden with the spurts of intense training.

I've seen plenty of blue and purple belts praised for the heart they exhibit in training, but I've seen an equal or greater number reminded that the goal of training is to learn, not necessarily to win. To understand the balance of the two is a key element of being an advanced practitioner, in my opinion.

 

[Il Wop-O]

My original point absolutely stands and that video does nothing to shake it. Of course Marcelo trains hard. Of course the Atos guys train hard. But it's not an all-the-time thing.

Marcelo is specifically making the point that he has to challenge himself with every match, to push himself even against people well below his level. But that isn't just a matter of going balls-to-the-wall physically. There are a lot of ways to challenge yourself against a lower belt and that's the greater point.

And Marcelo is one of the great innovators of the sport, as are the Mendes bros. There's no way to get that good, in that way, if your only focus is to go full-out every time, to beat up every training partner, regardless of level.

This whole thread is about blue belts beating up brown and black belts and the point I keep trying to make is that what happens in training is not necessarily indicative of competition skill. I would wager that most top guys are not letting themselves get submitted much, if ever. But they're also not shredding every belt they roll with just because they can. And they have the ability to scale between the two levels as needed and the awareness to know when each approach is best.

Now to be fair, I will say that different approaches work for different people, at least in terms of high-level competition. I've trained with a couple of guys who are at the top of their games right now, winning and submitting left and right at the highest levels of competition. One of them is a drilling and conditioning monster, and when he rolls live, it's usually at 80% or higher. He also doesn't like to roll with anyone below his general level and as a result, his training matches consistently provide him with a good challenge.

The other guy is much more relaxed in his approach. He turns it up all the time, and loves a real battle, but also enjoys putting himself in a bad or unusual spot against lesser training partners, in order to test himself. He handicaps himself all the time, for the purpose of experimentation and growth.

Both guys are great and tough as nails. I personally favor the latter approach, but I respect the hell out of the former. I also think it's a more sustainable one for the vast majority of grapplers who are never going to be competitors at the highest level.




Thanks, kying. I think what I forget sometimes, when I'm on these boards, is that most people haven't had the good fortune we've had, to spend years and years training around top-level competitors and coaches. They see the highlight-reel stuff and assume that's how it is, all the time, without realizing how the rest of the process works, how these guys really develop the skills they then harden with the spurts of intense training.

I've seen plenty of blue and purple belts praised for the heart they exhibit in training, but I've seen an equal or greater number reminded that the goal of training is to learn, not necessarily to win. To understand the balance of the two is a key element of being an advanced practitioner, in my opinion.

I agree here. I'm getting close to 3 years in at brown belt, and I DEFINITELY can't go 100% all the time. I do it against black belts, for sure, and other brown belts, and against our REALLY good purples or our pro fighters, but against anything below that, and I make my own challenges. Give up positions and work defense, restrict myself to low % subs or sweeps, etc.

Edit - when I say I CAN"T go 100% all the time, I don't mean physically can't, I mean you just can't go 100% kicking the crap out of lower-level guys all the time. You run out of training partners that way. End up with a super-tough core of guys that can't keep the lights on.

 

[Uchi Mata]

My original point absolutely stands and that video does nothing to shake it. Of course Marcelo trains hard. Of course the Atos guys train hard. But it's not an all-the-time thing.

Marcelo is specifically making the point that he has to challenge himself with every match, to push himself even against people well below his level. But that isn't just a matter of going balls-to-the-wall physically. There are a lot of ways to challenge yourself against a lower belt and that's the greater point.

And Marcelo is one of the great innovators of the sport, as are the Mendes bros. There's no way to get that good, in that way, if your only focus is to go full-out every time, to beat up every training partner, regardless of level.

This whole thread is about blue belts beating up brown and black belts and the point I keep trying to make is that what happens in training is not necessarily indicative of competition skill. I would wager that most top guys are not letting themselves get submitted much, if ever. But they're also not shredding every belt they roll with just because they can. And they have the ability to scale between the two levels as needed and the awareness to know when each approach is best.

Now to be fair, I will say that different approaches work for different people, at least in terms of high-level competition. I've trained with a couple of guys who are at the top of their games right now, winning and submitting left and right at the highest levels of competition. One of them is a drilling and conditioning monster, and when he rolls live, it's usually at 80% or higher. He also doesn't like to roll with anyone below his general level and as a result, his training matches consistently provide him with a good challenge.

The other guy is much more relaxed in his approach. He turns it up all the time, and loves a real battle, but also enjoys putting himself in a bad or unusual spot against lesser training partners, in order to test himself. He handicaps himself all the time, for the purpose of experimentation and growth.

Both guys are great and tough as nails. I personally favor the latter approach, but I respect the hell out of the former. I also think it's a more sustainable one for the vast majority of grapplers who are never going to be competitors at the highest level.




Thanks, kying. I think what I forget sometimes, when I'm on these boards, is that most people haven't had the good fortune we've had, to spend years and years training around top-level competitors and coaches. They see the highlight-reel stuff and assume that's how it is, all the time, without realizing how the rest of the process works, how these guys really develop the skills they then harden with the spurts of intense training.

I've seen plenty of blue and purple belts praised for the heart they exhibit in training, but I've seen an equal or greater number reminded that the goal of training is to learn, not necessarily to win. To understand the balance of the two is a key element of being an advanced practitioner, in my opinion.

I guess part of it is what you use rolling for. I'm more in the Atos camp where you experiment and figure out new stuff during drilling and positional sparring, and rolling is for timing and putting it all together (as well as conditioning). Certainly I do a ton of below 100% positional sparring, and that's where I work on new things and figure stuff out. But when I roll I'm usually rolling hard, unless it's with a new/much smaller white or blue belt.

Worth noting too is that rolling near 100% can mean different things. There is a female brown belt at my gym who is really good but I outweigh her by ~ 80 lbs. I'm not going to go easy on her, but I'm not going to just smash her with pressure. So when we roll, I just try to roll as fast as I can and transition between positions rather than smash. It keeps the roll competitive but we both get better, which we wouldn't if I just smashed her more slowly. So I suppose when I say that I believe in rolling near 100% most of the time, I don't mean in terms of winning rolls I mean in terms of pushing the pace and not getting into the habit of being lazy just because you're much better than some of your training partners and don't want to smash them.

 

[deadlizard]

I still agree with one-armed Jack- I've seen Marcelo roll hundreds of times.

Despite what he says in the video, I have seldom seen him go that hard in training - especially if it was not for competition training.

Then again, there usually is a massive gap in level- even among black belts and him.

So we've established that Marcelo is a liar? I'm so confused.

 

[Knock Out Ned]

My original point absolutely stands and that video does nothing to shake it.

Gets proven wrong, doesn't want to accept it.

Marcelo is specifically making the point that he has to challenge himself with every match, to push himself even against people well below his level. But that isn't just a matter of going balls-to-the-wall physically. There are a lot of ways to challenge yourself against a lower belt and that's the greater point.

I think what I forget sometimes, when I'm on these boards, is that most people haven't had the good fortune we've had, to spend years and years training around top-level competitors and coaches.

Thank you for taking the time to explain to us troglodytes and scrubs what Marcelo really meant.

 

[Knock Out Ned]

So we've established that Marcelo is a liar? I'm so confused.

You don't have to be confused. one.armed.jack explained it to us, see?

 

[JusticeMonkey]

Green Ocelot keeps starting these threads and then doesn't contribute to the conversation.

 

[johnkreese]

I've seen a blue belt who placed Silver at Worlds submit legitimate black belts in training. I'm talking about a blackbelt who took Justin Rader to the absolute limit in a couple of epic matches. It happens with world class level guys.

Now he didn't get the best of him every roll but he did put him in bad spots and make him work. It wasn't a fluke tap, it was legitimate control.

People don't realize how good elite level guys are. I would bet money on Nicholas Meregali catching greater than 75% of the black belts he rolls with that are not mundial finalists every year at the blackbelt level and he's just a lowly purple belt right?

Not that I'm a competitive brown belt, because I'm not.. but one of my favorite training partners is a blue belt. He catches me sometimes. We have similar body types, height , etc and he has a great understanding of leverage for his belt level. We do a lot of flow rolling, let each other work from bad positions, etc.

Sometimes a blue belt will have one part of their game that's really, really good. Jiu Jitsu is a crazy sport.