Weight lifting - how necessary?

[zinndawg]

You're point? You reference an elite athlete in the sport whom most people will never be like.

Having strong shoulders, legs, back, and core will make you a better grappler. There really is no argument. If your goal is BJJ, obviously focus on that. But a lifting regimen should definitely be included. I go to BJJ 5 days a week in the evening and lift 2-3x a week on top of being a full time student.

how do you feel about lifting on the same day as bjj? i've done it before, but felt like it sapped a lot of my energy.

 

[WitchCraft]

how do you feel about lifting on the same day as bjj? i've done it before, but felt like it sapped a lot of my energy.

I lift after BJJ sometimes and I actually really like it. I feel really warmed up and have a lot of adrenaline going. If I waited a few hours after jiu jitsu, I'd probably feel really beat and have a hard time.

 

[wOg]

I would argue that it is far easier to gain a technical edge over a technically superior opponent than it is to develop a strength edge (or even strength compatitibility) with a stronger opponent.

In other words, I can learn and develop a sweep that will work against those who are, by all accounts, technically better than I am in jiu jitsu. But the guys who are significantly stronger than me right now are probably going to remain significantly stronger than I am unless I devoted a disproportionate amount of time to improving my strength - time that would inevitably take away from jiu jitsu training to some degree.

Because I want to improve my effectiveness in jiu jitsu, I think this is a terrible trade.

It all goes back to what jiu jitsu is all about, IMO. Not to meet strength with strength, but to counter it, to use it against itself. I'd argue that this is what makes jiu jitsu a martial art, rather than a sport (which is and is not a different conversation.)

Also, the point about weightlifting and injury prevention. Again, I think you have to look more specifically at the kind of injuries that people who train jiu jitsu actually experience - not so much those injuries that athletes in general experience.

Fabio Gurgel makes an interesting point about injury prevention in jiu jitsu in a recent GracieMag:

"Warm up and stretching are fundamental, but training mobility through specific exercises is what actually prevents getting injured during a match."

When I think of all the injuries I've seen in teammates and had myself in 5+ years of training jiu jitsu, I couldn't agree with The General more on this point.

 

[EchoBoomer]

I would argue that it is far easier to gain a technical edge over a technically superior opponent than it is to develop a strength edge (or even strength compatitibility) with a stronger opponent.

In other words, I can learn and develop a sweep that will work against those who are, by all accounts, technically better than I am in jiu jitsu. But the guys who are significantly stronger than me right now are probably going to remain significantly stronger than I am unless I devoted a disproportionate amount of time to improving my strength - time that would inevitably take away from jiu jitsu training to some degree.

Because I want to improve my effectiveness in jiu jitsu, I think this is a terrible trade.

It all goes back to what jiu jitsu is all about, IMO. Not to meet strength with strength, but to counter it, to use it against itself. I'd argue that this is what makes jiu jitsu a martial art, rather than a sport (which is and is not a different conversation.)

Also, the point about weightlifting and injury prevention. Again, I think you have to look more specifically at the kind of injuries that people who train jiu jitsu actually experience - not so much those injuries that athletes in general experience.

Fabio Gurgel makes an interesting point about injury prevention in jiu jitsu in a recent GracieMag:

"Warm up and stretching are fundamental, but training mobility through specific exercises is what actually prevents getting injured during a match."

When I think of all the injuries I've seen in teammates and had myself in 5+ years of training jiu jitsu, I couldn't agree with The General more on this point.

This is a very good point, BUT don't you feel that...

If a grappler with AVERAGE SKILLS and BELOW AVERAGE ATTRIBUTES.

Were to challenge a grappler with AVERAGE SKILLS and ABOVE AVERAGE ATTRIBUTES.

He would be at a significant disadvantage?

Now you can say I would improve my skills, but then you would be competing against higher level grapplers, with most likely higher attributes.

So why wouldn't you want to increase your attributes and improve your athleticism?

 

[nefti]

This is a very good point, BUT don't you feel that...

If a grappler with AVERAGE SKILLS and BELOW AVERAGE ATTRIBUTES.

Were to challenge a grappler with AVERAGE SKILLS and ABOVE AVERAGE ATTRIBUTES.

He would be at a significant disadvantage?

Now you can say I would improve my skills, but then you would be competing against higher level grapplers, with most likely higher attributes.

So why wouldn't you want to increase your attributes and improve your athleticism?

because most people here are purples and lower and need to be working on their technique.

 

[EchoBoomer]

because most people here are purples and lower and need to be working on their technique.

Why not just bring them both up at the same time?

 

[Falufalump]

I would argue that it is far easier to gain a technical edge over a technically superior opponent than it is to develop a strength edge (or even strength compatitibility) with a stronger opponent.

In other words, I can learn and develop a sweep that will work against those who are, by all accounts, technically better than I am in jiu jitsu. But the guys who are significantly stronger than me right now are probably going to remain significantly stronger than I am unless I devoted a disproportionate amount of time to improving my strength - time that would inevitably take away from jiu jitsu training to some degree.

Because I want to improve my effectiveness in jiu jitsu, I think this is a terrible trade.

It all goes back to what jiu jitsu is all about, IMO. Not to meet strength with strength, but to counter it, to use it against itself. I'd argue that this is what makes jiu jitsu a martial art, rather than a sport (which is and is not a different conversation.)

Also, the point about weightlifting and injury prevention. Again, I think you have to look more specifically at the kind of injuries that people who train jiu jitsu actually experience - not so much those injuries that athletes in general experience.

Fabio Gurgel makes an interesting point about injury prevention in jiu jitsu in a recent GracieMag:

"Warm up and stretching are fundamental, but training mobility through specific exercises is what actually prevents getting injured during a match."

When I think of all the injuries I've seen in teammates and had myself in 5+ years of training jiu jitsu, I couldn't agree with The General more on this point.

Gurgel is definitely spot on with his remarks about mobility. A good strength and conditioning program would help aid mobility, and providing stability in that new range of motion. I think you could attain new, worthwhile levels of strength with approximately 4-5 hours a week of strength training. If that is a disproportionate amount of time for you, then you are correct.

You are also right in the goal of jiu jitsu being to counter strength with technique. However, your execution of technique can only become more dominant as your strength (this includes endurance and maximal strength) increases. Endurance itself is a quality of overall strength.

Training and S&C can be done on the same day, if you make sure your nutrition is spot on.

 

[nefti]

Why not just bring them both up at the same time?

because people have jobs and families

 

[Connoisseur]

I'd say that lifting is important for any athlete; it just has a time and a place. For fighters/ grapplers, when you're training real hard during the week it can be hard to fit in lifting. But i'd say that if you can get in 1 day of lifting a week, just hit all the major lifts- clean + press, squats, bench, pullups/ inverted rows.

 

[EchoBoomer]

because people have jobs and families

Come on, of course if you had to choose one or the other I would say go to class, but that doesn't mean strength training is not a part of grappling training. Especially if you are going to be competitive.

Besides are we not talking about the optimal "outlook" towards training?

To say as a competitive athlete (even combat grappling) that strength training (attributes), is unnecessary, all you need is a high level of skill, is ridiculous!

How many grapplers are their with immense skill, like your instructors/coaches, they just no longer poses the attributes to compete?

I might sound rude, but I in no way intend to be, I'm just typing very fast.

 

[El_Jefe]

Weight training is important in BJJ, but if you have to chose between lifting weights or actually training BJJ, BJJ is way more beneficial to your progression.

I work evenings and can't train BJJ on the same days that I work. I work four 10 hour shifts each week. I train BJJ on my days off. I lift on my work days. If I could train the same days that I work, I would absolutely pick BJJ over lifting.

 

[HomerPlata]

You're correct: correlation != causation. Marcelo not lifting weights doesn't imply it wouldn't help him.

Which is to say: you seem to have missed the point entirely. The point is that people like the genius I was responding to have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to preparing for elite competition. Would lifting weights help the average competitor? Maybe, maybe not. I didn't take a position. Do the people on this forum, including me, understand the intricacies of muscle repair and maintenance, of neuromuscular innervation, of metabolism? No. The most learned scientists in the world don't really understand such things, and that's why so much medical advice boils down to, "do what makes you feel healthy."

As you implied, it's impossible to do a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial (the gold standard in proving causation) in cases like this, so we're stuck with the above, woefully incomplete science. We're in a sad state when the experts are dramatically less confident than the laypeople (oh, excuse me, enlightened grappling masters) of the Sherdog grappling forum.

That's why posts like this are so silly and wasteful. And since I don't suppose this message will get through your thick skull, I'm going to do something more productive now.

My thick skull? Instead of spitting a thesaurus at me, why not point out exactly where I appear to be thick?

I don't know what you think your point came across like, but it was 90% arrogance, 10% prick. If a guy seems confident in his advice, that doesn't mean he's quoting it as medical fact. He's explaining what works in his experience, and the obvious addendum to that is "in my opinion". You seem to have anger issues that you express with verbal diahorrea. Just sayin'.