War Room OT Discussion v5

[Ruprecht]

I get that and you say that but didn't Obama use a fucking drone to execute a goddamn American citizen without a trial?

I get that ultimately that's a net positive but the dude was an American and didn't get the trial that was his by right no matter how much he helped to plan shit like 9/11

The "American Citizen" thing doesn't make much difference to me. Especially when it seems along the lines of, "Oh we don't care about all those foreign citizens he's killing, but one American citizen! That's just not on". I'm more sickened by my own Governments complicity in these actions.
The increased use of drone strikes under Obama was always something I was highly critical of, given the associated civilian deaths.
The idea that Trump has removed the oversight on those strikes and massively ramped them up, resulting in a massive increase in civilian deaths, is a huge concern.
Funnily enough his campaign rhetoric about those attacks creating more terrorists was actually on point. Pity it was just rhetoric.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Politicians are scum. That is known.

Neither of those countries engaged America. We engaged them. And now we commit violence against targeted civilians all over the globe in order to achieve political ends (i.e. terrorism).

So you don’t consider 9/11 engagement? Harboring the perpetrators of 9/11 doesn’t count since they’re non-State actors?

I’m not saying that the situation is obvious or cut and dried. There can be debate about it. But I wouldn’t equate Afghanistan to Iraq which was clearly an illegal war.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

So you don’t consider 9/11 engagement? Harboring the perpetrators of 9/11 doesn’t count since they’re non-State actors?

I’m not saying that the situation is obvious or cut and dried. There can be debate about it. But I wouldn’t equate Afghanistan to Iraq which was clearly an illegal war.

Neither country attacked ours. Some civilians committed an atrocious crime though.

Bombing supposed terrorist training camps was fine with me at the time. Everything after that I consider to be poor judgment.

 

[JonesBones]

Neither country attacked ours. Some civilians committed an atrocious crime though.

Bombing supposed terrorist training camps was fine with me at the time. Everything after that I consider to be poor judgment.

We had to do something. That is why I believe we went into Iraq actually. We got hit fuckin hard on 911 and somebody is gonna pay for that. Afghanistan was a light bombing campaign with a lot of locals doing the fighting on the ground. That wasn't enough for us. Somebody had to get fuckin flattened for 911. Afghanistan didn't satiate the need for revenge. So we go all shock and awe on Iraq.

 

[JonesBones]

I think another reason we went into Iraq, which is not often mentioned, is because Saddam tried to assassinate Bush's father. Bush was still mad about that. I remember right before the Iraq War or during it at a press conference and something was asked about Saddam and Bush got stern and said, "Look, this guy tried to kill my dad."

I think the word dad is someone important here and makes it more personal. Instead of "he tried to kill my father". It was a genuine moment. And that obviously isn't why we invaded Iraq but it made Bush more open to it for sure.

 

[Fawlty]

We had to do something. That is why I believe we went into Iraq actually. We got hit fuckin hard on 911 and somebody is gonna pay for that. Afghanistan was a light bombing campaign with a lot of locals doing the fighting on the ground. That wasn't enough for us. Somebody had to get fuckin flattened for 911. Afghanistan didn't satiate the need for revenge. So we go all shock and awe on Iraq.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

We had to do something. That is why I believe we went into Iraq actually. We got hit fuckin hard on 911 and somebody is gonna pay for that. Afghanistan was a light bombing campaign with a lot of locals doing the fighting on the ground. That wasn't enough for us. Somebody had to get fuckin flattened for 911. Afghanistan didn't satiate the need for revenge. So we go all shock and awe on Iraq.

In my opinion the "something" to do was at most bomb the known training camps and then capitalize on the worldwide outpouring of sympathy to strengthen our role as a leader in diplomacy. Not overthrowing governments.

 

[JonesBones]

"The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict." -Jung

exactly. we have men waging worldwide wars over inner conflicts. Hitler couldn't face himself down so it had to be played out on the world stage.

Jung gave this Hitler quote as an example of projection. This is Hitler talking about Churchill.

"For over live years this man has been chasing around Europe like a madman in search of something he could set on lire."

-Hitler.

lol. Star Wars is all about this shit. Knowing the evil inside you and confronting it. Jungian.

 

[Ruprecht]

We had to do something. That is why I believe we went into Iraq actually. We got hit fuckin hard on 911 and somebody is gonna pay for that. Afghanistan was a light bombing campaign with a lot of locals doing the fighting on the ground. That wasn't enough for us. Somebody had to get fuckin flattened for 911. Afghanistan didn't satiate the need for revenge. So we go all shock and awe on Iraq.

Unfortunately it was largely because of that use of Afghan militiamen and then the shift in focus to Iraq that the legitimate (to my mind) policing action against Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan failed and became a long protracted nation building exercise.

 

[JonesBones]

lol. that term is relative. it just didn't seem like we bloodied their noses enough and there was less shit talking. Like I remember an ex SOS, a republican, saying Dick Cheney was beating his chest on the Iraq War. Talking about shock and awe. These guys were pumped up.

 

[JonesBones]

Unfortunately it was largely because of that use of Afghan militiamen and then the shift in focus to Iraq that the legitimate (to my mind) policing action against Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan failed and became a long protracted nation building exercise.

Ya, we didn't get on the ground and really push their shit in.

 

[JonesBones]

One good thing that came from the Iraq War was the death of Saddam's sons. They were fuckin nutcases.

It's also why power is a bitch. One of his sons was almost assassinated. Saddam slept in different places each night. Has body doubles. lol. The fuckin paranoia surrounding these people.

Saddam is an idiot too. One of his advisors said he didn't believe the US would actually pull the trigger on him until he saw the bombs coming down. I think that was the first gulf war. He thought it was a bluff. I think he thought the 2nd one was a bluff too. lol.

 

[JonesBones]

oh, and remember the Iraq cards? lol. what a strange fuckin time. chemical ali. good times

 

[Fawlty]

lol. that term is relative. it just didn't seem like we bloodied their noses enough and there was less shit talking. Like I remember an ex SOS, a republican, saying Dick Cheney was beating his chest on the Iraq War. Talking about shock and awe. These guys were pumped up.

We dropped more than 17,000 bombs & missiles just from the start of the war through 2001. I wish I had the stats on this still, but it's extraordinary. We went fucking apeshit. My job was in a unit that handled almost every bomb in the beginning. We even filled up all the old Daisy Cutters and sent those.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Uday Hussein was my muse, my mentor, my world

 

[Gregolian]

We dropped more than 17,000 bombs & missiles just from the start of the war through 2001. I wish I had the stats on this still, but it's extraordinary. We went fucking apeshit. My job was in a unit that handled almost every bomb in the beginning. We even filled up all the old Daisy Cutters and sent those.

Daisy Cutters are fucking amazing to watch smack into a building the devastation they cause.

Saddam's sons were real pieces of work. Friend in the Marines was part of the group that captured that hotel of I think Uday's that was next to essentially his harem. The one where the pool was used to execute people. He said the amount of blood stains and other stuff pooled up in the dried out pool was disturbing.

 

[Trotsky]

@PolishHeadlock To what extent, if any, do you think that Chip Kelly should get credit for the Eagles championship run? I'm personally of the opinion that he's demonstrated himself to be a high-end coach, but a controversial GM.

But, to use a strange analogy, his influence on the Eagles franchise kind of reminds me of Mao's influence on China in that he made radical and painful changes, removing roster bloat and causing considerable change, that set the stage for his predecessor to more easily build a better team.

 

[Fawlty]

Daisy Cutters are fucking amazing to watch smack into a building the devastation they cause.

Saddam's sons were real pieces of work. Friend in the Marines was part of the group that captured that hotel of I think Uday's that was next to essentially his harem. The one where the pool was used to execute people. He said the amount of blood stains and other stuff pooled up in the dried out pool was disturbing.

That's grim as fuck...

I think Daisy Cutters are a little big for a single building . They were BLU-82s, the biggest until the MOAB came around. They were handy for turning jungle floor into landing zones for choppers in Vietnam. The MK-82s & especially MK-84s were pretty good at fucking up buildings. Not sure what they're slinging around these days, but anything in the 1,000-2,000 lb range is pretty fucking impressive.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

@PolishHeadlock To what extent, if any, do you think that Chip Kelly should get credit for the Eagles championship run? I'm personally of the opinion that he's demonstrated himself to be a high-end coach, but a controversial GM.

But, to use a strange analogy, his influence on the Eagles franchise kind of reminds me of Mao's influence on China in that he made radical and painful changes, removing roster bloat and causing considerable change, that set the stage for his predecessor to more easily build a better team.

It pains me to say this but I think this is Roseman's roster.

I personally think Chip got a raw deal but none of these coaches were his. Bradford was absolute trash.

He did draft Lane Johnson, Ertz and and Agholor but there is debate about wether that was Chip or Howie and Agholor played horrible under Chip but great for Doug.

I think Chip cam succeed in this league of given another legit shot. He came in with some innovative stuff. The league adjusted and re tried to revamp his roster in one year. Don't think he really got a chance adjust to the league adjusting to his offense.

 

[JonesBones]

We dropped more than 17,000 bombs & missiles just from the start of the war through 2001. I wish I had the stats on this still, but it's extraordinary. We went fucking apeshit. My job was in a unit that handled almost every bomb in the beginning. We even filled up all the old Daisy Cutters and sent those.

Wasn't a lot of in the mountains? Like pounding the shit out of these remote areas where Bin Laden was supposedly hiding in a cave. I mean, what were they even bombing? lol. I remember before Bin Laden was killed I asked a military guy who served there if he thought Bin Laden was dead. He said, "Dude, we dropped so many bombs on that fuckin place, he has to be dead."

You don't seem like a military type. I am certainly not.