War Room Lounge v69: Oh no not the bees! Edition

[Jack V Savage]

I already cleared that up in the conversation i had with @Jack V Savage. Welcome to the 21st century moron.

We went through this already, but I think your fundamental mistake is your apparent belief that liberalism ("classical liberalism") defines the American right, when it is at best one of many ideologies that influence it, and one with a very small and waning influence. You also fail to appreciate the extent to which the American left is liberal (and it is the by far the dominant ideology among that group).

 

[Falsedawn]

Shall not be infringed?

I can imagine being part of well-organized mulishas that exercise with longswords.

Did someone say DEUS VULT?

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I said it last time, but it's pretty funny that in a quest to disavow the horrific history of right wing authoritarianism, you guys are leveraging the traditional tactics of those same right wing regimes to affect the veracity of information. Nobody has suddenly lost their grasp on 200 plus years of political theory, you dumbasses are just viewing this through special viewpoints that don't add up to the established orthodoxy, and acting as if everyone else is wrong for following said orthodoxy. Despite your hardest efforts to make everyone forget Mussolini as the right wing dickhead he was, you just can't help but act like Mussolini.

Yes we are the dumb asses that group a strong centralized authority and highly illiberal group of fascistic thugs in the same camp as the founding fathers who broke away from the very tyrannical institutions you are labeling them the same as. Do you realize how fucking retarded you sound?

Let me break this down for you because im not doing this twice in this lounge. It's way too much of a fucking head ache and i have other shit to do today. The status quo in america (aka conservatism) is classical liberalism it's literally codified doctrine as per the constitution. The spectrum which defines political ideology in AMERICA is that of collectivism vs individualism, Statism vs Anti-statism. Mussolini is not to the right by any conceivable metric in America you fucking dolt. Spectrum's are not universal. You sitting here talking to me about Mussolini and the fucking king of England is telling in just how detached from reality you are. The further away from the constitution you get the further left you go. Are you seriously implying right now that Musollini and his manifesto is in any way espousing the same ideals as the american constitution? Fuck outta here with that dog shit.

We went through this already, but I think your fundamental mistake is your apparent belief that liberalism ("classical liberalism") defines the American right, when it is at best one of many ideologies that influence it, and one with a very small and waning influence. You also fail to appreciate the extent to which the American left is liberal (and it is the by far the dominant ideology among that group).

That's incorrect and i cleared that up many times.

You are having a hard time understanding that American branded rightism is American Conservatism. I make no distinction between the two. The only reason i even label it as American rightism is to firstly to differentiate it from it's European counter part and to make sure im talking about ideology and not voting trends. You are trying way too hard to talk about the general american voting block and making it seem as if im implying everyone in America on the right is a classical liberal. In other words you are being largely disingenuous here.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Man, what a serious poster. If only @EL CORINTHIAN had more time so we could be blessed by these insights more frequently.

lol no one gives a fuck what you think.

 

[Falsedawn]

Yes we are the dumb asses that group a strong centralized authority and highly illiberal group of fascistic thugs in the same camp as the founding fathers who broke away from the very tyrannical institutions you are labeling them the same as. Do you realize how fucking retarded you sound?

Let me break this down for you because im not doing this twice in this lounge. It's way too much of a fucking head ache and i have other shit to do today. The status quo in america (aka conservatism) is classical liberalism it's literally codified doctrine as per the constitution. The spectrum which defines political ideology in AMERICA is that of collectivism vs individualism, Statism vs Anti-statism. Mussolini is not to the right by any conceivable metric in America you fucking dolt. Spectrum's are not universal. You sitting here talking to me about Mussolini and the fucking king of England is telling in just how detached from reality you are. The further away from the constitution you get the further left you go. Are you seriously implying right now that Musollini and his manifesto is in any way espousing the same ideals as the american constitution? Fuck outta here with that dog shit.



That's incorrect and i cleared that up many times.

You are having a hard time understanding that American branded rightism is American Conservatism. I make no distinction between the two. The only reason i even label it as American rightism is to firstly to differentiate it from it's European counter part and to make sure im talking about ideology and not voting trends. You are trying way too hard to talk about the general american voting block and making it seem as if im implying everyone in America on the right is a classical liberal. In other words you are being largely disingenuous here.

Anyone who thinks a hereditary monarch is left wing is clearly touched in the fucking head. I don't care to know your reasoning for being touched in the fucking head.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Anyone who thinks a hereditary monarch is left wing is clearly touched in the fucking head. I don't care to know your reasoning for being touched in the fucking head.

Thank god. You were giving me a fucking head ache. Back to the depths with you.

 

[Falsedawn]

Thank god. You were giving me a fucking head ache. Back to the depths with you.

...you quoted me.

 

[Andy Capp]

@EL CORINTHIAN I'm part of no one's posse. Ask regulars in the Dump and the OT about how receptive I am to getting involved in such things. If your positions were completely reversed, I would have posted the same reply to you. You made a declarative statement that doesn't match my experience here. I'm curious.


Crazy thought just popped into my head. I wonder if anyone has ever tagged a user in one thread, hoping to distract them with it in order to start another thread they don't want the other user to see immediately. It wasn't until recently that I even considered the existence of forum intrigues but once I realized the sorts of lame crap people get up to on here, it became obvious every forum I have ever been on since the latter Compuserve days was likely rife with that mean girls fiddle faddle.

 

[Jack V Savage]

That's incorrect and i cleared that up many times.

You are having a hard time understanding that American branded rightism is American Conservatism. I make no distinction between the two. The only reason i even label it as American rightism is to firstly to differentiate it from it's European counter part and to make sure im talking about ideology and not voting trends. You are trying way too hard to talk about the general american voting block and making it seem as if im implying everyone in America on the right is a classical liberal. In other words you are being largely disingenuous here.

I assure you I am not being disingenuous at all. If you're just saying that there's a theoretical "American-branded rightism" that has no relation to the actual American right as a political or intellectual movement (perhaps it is an influence to you in whatever country you're in?) that is liberal, and you're acknowledging that the actual American left is largely liberal, we don't have any substantive disagreement. You should just be aware that when most people talk about the "American right," they are referring to the political and intellectual (such as it is) movement (as we are when we refer to the American left).

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

@EL CORINTHIAN I'm part of no one's posse. Ask regulars in the Dump and the OT about how receptive I am to getting involved in such things. If your positions were completely reversed, I would have posted the same reply to you. You made a declarative statement that doesn't match my experience here. I'm curious.

It's through general conversation through out the time i've been here. It's not something im cataloging to dish out when people ask. You are more than welcome to do that your self and nothing is stopping you. One person here thinks Mussolini would fit right in with the founding fathers so perceptions are largely skewed anyways.

 

[Fawlty]

@Crazy Diamond "the bees" is a reference to a scene from The Wicker Man (with Nic Cage). That clip is probably the worst acting/CGI combo in history.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It's through general conversation through out the time i've been here. It's not something im cataloging to dish out when people ask. You are more than welcome to do that your self and nothing is stopping you. One person here thinks Mussolini would fit right in with the founding fathers so perceptions are largely skewed anyways.

No one thinks that Mussolini would fit in with the Founding Fathers. He would fit in well with the actually existing American right.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I assure you I am not being disingenuous at all. If you're just saying that there's a theoretical "American-branded rightism" that has no relation to the actual American right as a political or intellectual movement (perhaps it is an influence to you in whatever country you're in?) that is liberal, and you're acknowledging that the actual American left is largely liberal, we don't have any substantive disagreement. You should just be aware that when most people talk about the "American right," they are referring to the political and intellectual (such as it is) movement (as we are when we refer to the American left).

It without a question has a relation to the right wing voting block, how much is a conversation for another day. The American Constitution is codified conservatism. It's quite literally written for all to see and is rather inescapable. Conservatism in America is not void of liberalism and is not the deferentiating factor between the left-right paradigm in America. You are trying to set up an argument that it is bereft of it and that's because of authoritarian stances being held by teh general right wing voting block.

My assertion isn't that the left isn't liberal. You injected that on your own.

Are you asserting that American Conservatism isn't Liberal?

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

No one thinks that Mussolini would fit in with the Founding Fathers. He would fit in well with the actually existing American right.

Ah so what you mean here is that he would fit in with the majority of the right wing voting block.

Doesn't negate my argument then.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It without a question has a relation to the right wing voting block, how much is a conversation for another day. The American Constitution is codified conservatism. It's quite literally written for all to see and is rather inescapable.

FYI, the term of "bloc." And, no, the right-wing voting bloc (and think tanks, and media, etc.) is not strongly influenced by liberalism--or at least no in comparison to A) how strongly the left is influenced by liberalism and B) how strongly it is influenced by right-wing ideologies. Also, the American Constitution is a liberal document. The American Revolution was more conservative than the French Revolution, but moved the country in a less-conservative direction than it had been on before.

Conservatism in America is not void of liberalism and is not the deferentiating factor between the left-right paradigm in America. You are trying to set up an argument that it is bereft of it and that's because of authoritarian stances being held by teh general right wing voting block.

My assertion isn't that the left isn't liberal. You injected that on your own.

Are you asserting that American Conservatism isn't Liberal?

Yes, American Conservatism is not very liberal. American liberalism is very liberal.

Ah so what you mean here is that he would fit in with the majority of the right wing voting block.

Doesn't negate my argument then.

Right, I said before that if you're talking about a theoretical movement with no relation to the actual one, you can describe it however you like. In that case, your version of "American conservatism" better describes the left in America.

 

[Fawlty]

Go outside and get get laid already.

Ah, an exhibitionist. Watch out for the fuzz, yo.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

I’m here to chat with my good friends

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

FYI, the term of "bloc." And, no, the right-wing voting bloc (and think tanks, and media, etc.) is not strongly influenced by liberalism--or at least no in comparison to A) how strongly the left is influenced by liberalism and B) how strongly it is influenced by right-wing ideologies. Also, the American Constitution is a liberal document. The American Revolution was more conservative than the French Revolution, but moved the country in a less-conservative direction than it had been on before.



Yes, American Conservatism is not very liberal. American liberalism is very liberal.



Right, I said before that if you're talking about a theoretical movement with no relation to the actual one, you can describe it however you like. In that case, your version of "American conservatism" better describes the left in America.

This is just flat out false.

American Conservatism is liberal as the constitution is laid out. Is it a form of modern day progressivism? No. Is it liberal in the sense that it espouses equality for all under the law, speration of church and state, freedom of speech ect ect. Yes. This is why i told you over and over last time that it doesn't make a lick of difference how the general voting "bloc" (english is a second language let's not forget) does not negate what American Conservatism is. All those changes mean is that it's shifted left. And before you misinterpret that i mean that the voting bloc has shifted left according to you. Ideology and it's position on the spectrum doesn't simply dissapear because how of how people vote or your perception of those trends are.

Oh whale?

 

[Limbo Pete]

"THE CONSERVATIVES ARE REALLY LIBERALS! THE LIBERALS ARE FASCISTS!
YAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!"

 

[Trotsky]

Imagine picking 2019 - a time in which American conservatives are...

passing laws punishing boycotts of a foreign country;
actively running interference for foreign war crimes;
supporting aggressive trade protectionism (and protectionism built on identity politics, nonetheless);
constantly attacking the media as "fake news" for reporting facts and cheering on vindictive action against them by the government;
supporting cracking down on protesters;
knowingly supporting rampant contravention of due process in border detainees (and just opposing free immigration in general);
actively trying to tear down the separation of church and state and referencing the Bible in their political movement;
criminalizing abortion and jailing women for contraceptive mishaps;
threatening withholding of federal funds to coerce states and municipalities to hand over their law enforcement resources to the federal government for immigration enforcement; and
stripping consumer and worker rights to litigation before a court of the law...

...to say that American conservatives are actually liberal.

I can't imagine the amount of lead a reasonable person would have to consume to think that.