War Room Lounge v63

[MikeMcMann]

Some moron? I'm not sure if you're aware, but I would estimate that half or more of Americans think that

What is behind this thread? Do you believe Obama was wrong acting to stem the blood flow from the 2008 collapse?

I do take issue with HOW Obama did it as I think there was a far fairer and better way to save the economy, but i do think the economy needed saving. I also take issue with no charges against anyone over the mess, at a minimum both rating agencies should have been shuttered. But I also know why they did not charge anyone.

 

[Trotsky]

What is behind this thread? Do you believe Obama was wrong acting to stem the blood flow from the 2008 collapse?

I do take issue with HOW Obama did it as I think there was a far fairer and better way to save the economy, but i do think the economy needed saving. I also take issue with no charges against anyone over the mess, at a minimum both rating agencies should have been shuttered. But I also know why they did not charge anyone.

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

I don't think Obama doubled or tripled the debt or whatever. But a lot of people do.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

What? I do not understand

The last page of that thread features two guests who could pass as our RIPWarrior-esque exclusive Canadian contributor, is what I'm saying.

They're indistinguishable and could very well both be the lunatic himself.

 

[Jack V Savage]

What is behind this thread? Do you believe Obama was wrong acting to stem the blood flow from the 2008 collapse?

I do take issue with HOW Obama did it as I think there was a far fairer and better way to save the economy, but i do think the economy needed saving. I also take issue with no charges against anyone over the mess, at a minimum both rating agencies should have been shuttered. But I also know why they did not charge anyone.

We needed stimulus, and the ARRA was really good (too small, but arguably as big as possible given political constraints), but it was ~$800B. Not anything close to doubling debt. Also, not passing a stimulus would mean a prolonged recession and arguably higher debt. And the ARA, by generating more revenue than enough revenue to pay for itself and cutting costs, was possibly the biggest debt-reducing bill ever passed, though that wasn't its primary intention. So it was largely responsible for getting us on a long-term sustainable path (granting that "sustainable" isn't a great concept here, as no path is meant to be sustained--it is useful just in noting that some changes, like the recent cuts, inevitably cause future changes to account for them).

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

I don't think Obama doubled or tripled the debt or whatever. But a lot of people do.

The reasoning behind that "analysis" is completely indefensible, and I don't think you'll see anyone seriously trying to defend it or applying it consistently. So it's "believed" in the sense that affirming it gives some people warm feelings, but not in the sense that people genuinely proceed as if it were true.

 

[Trotsky]

The last page of that thread features two guests who could pass as our RIPWarrior-esque exclusive Canadian contributor, is what I'm saying.

They're indistinguishable and could very well both be the lunatic himself.

Yeah, that's definitely RIPWarrior. No doubt.

Pretty incredible that they can't keep him out. I tried ONCE to make an alt account to troll Jack V Savage and they blocked it before I could ever even post on account of my IP address. So clearly they can block him from making new accounts too.

 

[Trotsky]

The reasoning behind that "analysis" is completely indefensible, and I don't think you'll see anyone seriously trying to defend it or applying it consistently. So it's "believed" in the sense that affirming it gives some people warm feelings, but not in the sense that people genuinely proceed as if it were true.

I absolutely believe that there are/were voters, even swing voters, that are convinced Democrats are bad with money and bad at managing the economy on account of the fact that Obama tripled the national debt. And that factors as a heavy consideration in favor of Republicans.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I absolutely believe that there are/were voters, even swing voters, that are convinced Democrats are bad with money and bad at managing the economy on account of the fact that Obama tripled the national debt. And that factors as a heavy consideration in favor of Republicans.

Even there, the flow is backward. If you believe that "Democrats are bad with money," then you might find it plausible that Obama doubled the debt (it's not even doubled, but put that aside--the analysis is the problem). I don't think that the claim would *convince* you that Democrats in general or Obama in particular is "bad with money."

 

[MikeMcMann]

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

I don't think Obama doubled or tripled the debt or whatever. But a lot of people do.

Well I wasn't sure what I was asking either do to the fragment of the discussion.

I thought that maybe you were in the camp blaming Obama for running up debt during that period as many Trumptards do now. Obviously that was not the case.

I disagree with how the debt was deployed but the debt was needed.

 

[MikeMcMann]

We needed stimulus, and the ARRA was really good (too small, but arguably as big as possible given political constraints), but it was ~$800B. Not anything close to doubling debt. Also, not passing a stimulus would mean a prolonged recession and arguably higher debt. And the ARA, by generating more revenue than enough revenue to pay for itself and cutting costs, was possibly the biggest debt-reducing bill ever passed, though that wasn't its primary intention. So it was largely responsible for getting us on a long-term sustainable path (granting that "sustainable" isn't a great concept here, as no path is meant to be sustained--it is useful just in noting that some changes, like the recent cuts, inevitably cause future changes to account for them).

Ya agreed it was needed.

But the same money would have been far better deployed and with more benefits overall IMO if not given to bail out the giant Wall Street banks and instead given to the smaller and far more numerous regional banks that actually carried the bulk of the actual mortgages (not mortgage securities) that were with the actual citizens.

I read a stat that the same money could have been provided in the form of mortgage relief to the tune of $50k-$100k per citizen thus alleviating the strain of many mortgages being 'under water' and allowing many more home owners to keep their homes, but also putting massive liquidity in the market.

Let the big Wall Street banks sink or swim on their own but prompt a lot of growth in that far more competitive mid bank market.

But as the ultra wealthy own a disproportionate share of holdings at risk in those Wall Street banks they were never going to be allowed to all fail. Same reason prosecutions were not done. ONce the finger pointing started and Top Wall Street bankers started getting charged the chain reaction of others being offered would have been endless. It was going to touch friends or family members of those making the decision to charge.

 

[tonni]

I had to see this so so do you. Painting Epstien had in his mansion of Ole Bill

What the fuck that's not real is it?

edit: I google it that's real. by gawd

 

[tonni]

how ironic. the man who hung up a painting of Bill Clinton on his wall got hung by Bill Clinton irl

 

[Higus]

@Trotsky @Jack V Savage
This debt debate between you basically comes down to whether people are stupid or dishonest when they repeat false claims. I've been wondering for a while if it's even a meaningful distinction these days.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

@Trotsky @Jack V Savage
This debt debate between you basically comes down to whether people are stupid or dishonest when they repeat false claims. I've been wondering for a while if it's even a meaningful distinction these days.

Hanlon's razor is an aphorism expressed in various ways, including:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[1]
An eponymous law, probably named after a Robert J. Hanlon, it is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior.

 

[Rational Poster]

Yeah, that's definitely RIPWarrior. No doubt.

Pretty incredible that they can't keep him out. I tried ONCE to make an alt account to troll Jack V Savage and they blocked it before I could ever even post on account of my IP address. So clearly they can block him from making new accounts too.

He's using VPNs and shit, it's not that hard.

 

[Trotsky]

@Trotsky @Jack V Savage
This debt debate between you basically comes down to whether people are stupid or dishonest when they repeat false claims. I've been wondering for a while if it's even a meaningful distinction these days.

Hanlon's razor is an aphorism expressed in various ways, including:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[1]
An eponymous law, probably named after a Robert J. Hanlon, it is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior.

My position on the matter is mostly based on my impression from trying to situate myself in the perspective of a moron, i.e. someone with very little information, very little talent for understanding information, and, most of all, a very strong tendency toward favoring simplistic and on-the-face explanations. When Obama took office, national debt was at $10 trillion. When he left office, it was at $20 trillion. There are plenty of graphics that are circulated that will present people with that fact, and that is the home base for understanding the issue. Now, someone like JVS can come in and give a long, detailed explanation of why saying that, therefore, Obama doubled the debt is wrong. However, all of that explanation is going to be pushing up against that graphic and any other person from the other side can say "see? see how much of a liar he is? he's not even denying that the debt doubled during Obama's presidency and he's still trying to blame Republicans and protect his black Jesus!"

Now, there are some people that repeat that argument in bad faith: people like Paul Ryan, Sean Hannity, Grover Norquist, Rand Paul, etc. But, of the non-politicians that you see spouting that on social media, I would proffer 95% believe it is the objective truth.

He's using VPNs and shit, it's not that hard.

He has a Very Private Network?

How do I get one?

 

[tonni]

Yeah, that's definitely RIPWarrior. No doubt.

Pretty incredible that they can't keep him out. I tried ONCE to make an alt account to troll Jack V Savage and they blocked it before I could ever even post on account of my IP address. So clearly they can block him from making new accounts too.

The guy is absolutely obsessed with this place. I wonder what he looks like IRL. I bet he's really timid and he's not open about his beliefs.

 

[Higus]

Hanlon's razor is an aphorism expressed in various ways, including:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[1]
An eponymous law, probably named after a Robert J. Hanlon, it is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior.

Sometimes, the level of stupidity is so high that it can't suspend disbelief.
In either case, what are your options as someone who just wants to get the facts straight? The stupid one can't (or won't) understand the argument and the dishonest ones don't care. Once you've identified that they're just there to wear you down, the only thing to do is triage your energy.

 

[tonni]

My position on the matter is mostly based on my impression from trying to situate myself in the perspective of a moron, i.e. someone with very little information, very little talent for understanding information, and, most of all, a very strong tendency toward favoring simplistic and on-the-face explanations.

So that's why you're on this forum, to get inspiration?

 

[Trotsky]

So that's why you're on this forum, to get inspiration?

Pretty much. Farmer Br0wn talking about "rights" is like my Mona Lisa.