War Room Lounge v53: Short Notice

[Cuauhtemoc]

Ok, which one of you is the gentleman in this video? Looks like a lovechild of Shannon Sharpe and Chris Tucker.

Was the cop stuck to the car? I didn't get it very well, I think I'd have jumped if I was the cop

I think a distinction should be made here: casting POC in a show/film that takes place in medieval Europe is fine. People who think medieval times were some sort of ethnostate are really, REALLY ignorant. You had sub-Saharan African people going around, it is not "historically inaccurate" to have them there.

Now if your show is supposed to be rooted in history and you cast a black actor for the role of Robert Hopkin, the English blacksmith, that can seem a little hamfisted, I could agree with that. But having a black person, period, isn't inconsistent.

You can have people from other ethnicities in your ethnostate just not as citizens or very few of them. It's basically like Japan, if you walk around Tokyo you will see white and black people but they're not citizens in most cases, just tourists or businessmen.
It's possible that there were a few subsaharan africans and chinese merchants or travelers in 10th century France but they would be very few indeed. It's simple distance and the way society was structured.
Also some societies in certain periods were very closed and you couldn't even move around without permission with a few tradesmen being exempt, like masons and long story short that's how the freemasons started as they could travel around.
I see some scholars are now playing with words and claiming race is a modern concept but it's all smoke and mirrors. For example, the Spartans didn't have the concept of white people. Well, of course because they didn't they didn't need it, they had the concept of Spartan, Hellene, Helot and barbarian. All Spartans and Hellenes would be caucasian by definition and all blacks would be barbarians together with other whites, asians etc. That is, they were even more racist!

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

I don't know, female action leads never seemed to bother me. I also really liked Atomic Blonde. I know a lot of people love Kill Bill (not a fan but I also tend to dislike Tarantino).

I just like gritty over the top action films so maybe suspending disbelief is easy for me. I mean I loved The Expendables and Rambos and nothing in those is plausible.

And I prefer Rambo 4 and Atomic Blonde over most comic book movies (not sure if Atomic Blonde was a graphic novel or not)

Same here. .

I had no problem with Sarah Connor
Ripley from the alien films, Vasquez in Aliens..


And of course the Kill Bill films.

Then again, there are times it irks me....like Salt with Angelina Jolie or haywire with Gina Carano

 

[Sketch]

Same here. .

I had no problem with Sarah Connor
Ripley from the alien films, Vasquez in Aliens..


And of course the Kill Bill films.

Then again, there are times it irks me....like Salt with Angelina Jolie or haywire with Gina Carano

You and I spoke about some boxing recently. It's true that we both enjoy that sport.

Ripley was great in Alien and Aliens. It's funny and crazy how she is lied to by the robot human in the first film.

 

[MiniCraque]

I am not saying premodern societies are ethnostates, in fact I said the opposite earlier

I'm not saying you did, I just contrasted it to the more common depiction of medieval Europe (where there are no POC).

What I am saying though is that you don't have to jump through hoops to explain why there are people of color in your film. It's not like the storyteller has spell it out: ok see this film takes place in a city that was a trade route with Egypt so "I'm allowed" to have a black person there. Frankly I see this line of reasoning as somewhat problematic. Having a person from a different ethnicity from the other major characters does not automatically impose a "explain yourself" question to the writer/director. If it was at all possible and doesn't contradict other aspects of the character, I really don't see a problem.

Now that is assuming we're talking about a historical setting aimed at realism. When it comes to fantasy, fuck that noise. As soon as something like a dragon shows up in your story, all bets are off. That is no longer a historical setting and there's no need to explain why someone is, say, Asian.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

You and I spoke about some boxing recently. It's true that we both enjoy that sport.

Ripley was great in Alien and Aliens. It's funny and crazy how she is lied to by the robot human in the first film.

Ash can go fuck itself

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

You and I spoke about some boxing recently. It's true that we both enjoy that sport.

Ripley was great in Alien and Aliens. It's funny and crazy how she is lied to by the robot human in the first film.

Btw, Bishop in aliens cites Arthur C Clarkes 3rd law of robotics

 

[MiniCraque]

double post

 

[MiniCraque]

Was the cop stuck to the car? I didn't get it very well, I think I'd have jumped if I was the cop

You can have people from other ethnicities in your ethnostate just not as citizens or very few of them. It's basically like Japan, if you walk around Tokyo you will see white and black people but they're not citizens in most cases, just tourists or businessmen.
It's possible that there were a few subsaharan africans and chinese merchants or travelers in 10th century France but they would be very few indeed. It's simple distance and the way society was structured.
Also some societies in certain periods were very closed and you couldn't even move around without permission with a few tradesmen being exempt, like masons and long story short that's how the freemasons started as they could travel around.
I see some scholars are now playing with words and claiming race is a modern concept but it's all smoke and mirrors. For example, the Spartans didn't have the concept of white people. Well, of course because they didn't they didn't need it, they had the concept of Spartan, Hellene, Helot and barbarian. All Spartans and Hellenes would be caucasian by definition and all blacks would be barbarians together with other whites, asians etc. That is, they were even more racist!

That's more or less where my point resides though. Is it at all possible to have such a character there, however uncommon? If it is, end of conversation imo. There's a big difference between unusual (i.e. "oh I wouldn't necessarily expect to see that") and otherwordly (i.e. "that would never ever appear there in any possible scenario").

Kinda off topic: the cop was standing on the side step of the truck and grabbing the driver, so as soon as it started moving he was along for the ride.

 

[Sketch]

Ash can go fuck itself

I agree. He tried to keep it private, but it came out in the open in the end. That's what happens. Lol, in a pool of his liquids.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm not saying you did, I just contrasted it to the more common depiction of medieval Europe (where there are no POC).

What I am saying though is that you don't have to jump through hoops to explain why there are people of color in your film. It's not like the storyteller has spell it out: ok see this film takes place in a city that was a trade route with Egypt so "I'm allowed" to have a black person there. Frankly I see this line of reasoning as somewhat problematic. Having a person from a different ethnicity from the other major characters does not automatically impose a "explain yourself" question to the writer/director. If it was at all possible and doesn't contradict other aspects of the character, I really don't see a problem.

Now that is assuming we're talking about a historical setting aimed at realism. When it comes to fantasy, fuck that noise. As soon as something like a dragon shows up in your story, all bets are off. That is no longer a historical setting and there's no need to explain why someone is, say, Asian.

You can feel how you want but I am just trying to explain why someone might find an issue with that approach. Personally when it comes to historical fiction I prefer when the characters are squarely situation within the wider social context and introducing a character who stands out from the cast due to their ethnicity calls for some kind explanation for me. Sure its possible that a white guy can become a samurai but that doesn't change the fact that its kind of jarring for me to see Tom Cruise as the protagonist of a film that takes place in 19th century Japan.

I have already explained why I don't think a fantasy setting negates my concerns.

 

[Fawlty]

Somebody on a YT vid commented: "Ben Aspirin."

I lost.

 

[HockeyBjj]

@Lord Commander Palis is no longer banned?

 

[Fawlty]

@Lord Commander Palis is no longer banned?

Still looks banned to me ("user profile not available"). For whatever reason, some bans don't say "banned" but have double yellows. It's confusing.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Still looks banned to me ("user profile not available"). For whatever reason, some bans don't say "banned" but have double yellows. It's confusing.

Huh. I had always thought that just meant he had his profile set to private or just friends or something.

Never mind then. Just saw his posts in an old thread and didn't see the banned banner

 

[Fawlty]

Huh. I had always thought that just meant he had his profile set to private or just friends or something.

Never mind then. Just saw his posts in an old thread and didn't see the banned banner

If they limit their profile it will say something like: "This member limits who may view..." and if banned it's "Profile not available."

I'm sure he'll be back at some point though, he's the sort who comes back.

 

[luckyshot]

@luckyshot I've solved the problem of free will. Took a couple years of thinking, but finally have this one licked.

Do tell...

 

[HockeyBjj]

 

[MiniCraque]

You can feel how you want but I am just trying to explain why someone might find an issue with that approach. Personally when it comes to historical fiction I prefer when the characters are squarely situation within the wider social context and introducing a character who stands out from the cast due to their ethnicity calls for some kind explanation for me. Sure its possible that a white guy can become a samurai but that doesn't change the fact that its kind of jarring for me to see Tom Cruise as the protagonist of a film that takes place in 19th century Japan.

I have already explained why I don't think a fantasy setting negates my concerns.

I get that, I'm just arguing that issue is pedantic. If that is enough to ruin imersion in any way, the reader/watcher is holding some weird standards. Like I said, if it's not impossible and doesn't really alter the story (i.e. attention is devoted to the fact that someone seems out of place), what's the problem?

As an example, there are tales set in medieval times were a commoner does something heroic and ends up ascending to nobility. That would be as uncommon as a person of color (far more, infact) considering how rigid social classes were, but why have a problem with that?

Again I'm making the distinction between things that are unlikely and impossible. If someone shows up with a shotgun in 13th century England obviously that ruins everything.

If you'll allow me to revisit your point about fantasies... you mentioned internal consistency, which goes along with world building. Since usually you're not given a history and geography lesson pertaining the world where the story takes place, you have to connect the dots one by one as they're given to you (either shown or told). That would include demographics. Since the ethnicity of people in that world is not something throughly explored (mostly because it usually doesn't matter), in order to think a person of color is somehow out of place would require you to assume the internal consistency is borrowed from a real place and real moment. Say, unless otherwise stated, the world I'm exploring is similar to medieval France. Which is mostly fine, authors don't explicitly give you a real world connection but you usually can connect the dots. But when the author inevitably breaks away from that connection ("unless otherwise stated"), if that detail doesn't fundamentally change the way that world operates, why bother? It's not like the author owes any consistency to a real setting.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

God damn that man is tough

 

[Islam Imamate]

I get that, I'm just arguing that issue is pedantic. If that is enough to ruin imersion in any way, the reader/watcher is holding some weird standards. Like I said, if it's not impossible and doesn't really alter the story (i.e. attention is devoted to the fact that someone seems out of place), what's the problem?

As an example, there are tales set in medieval times were a commoner does something heroic and ends up ascending to nobility. That would be as uncommon as a person of color (far more, infact) considering how rigid social classes were, but why have a problem with that?

Again I'm making the distinction between things that are unlikely and impossible. If someone shows up with a shotgun in 13th century England obviously that ruins everything.

If you'll allow me to revisit your point about fantasies... you mentioned internal consistency, which goes along with world building. Since usually you're not given a history and geography lesson pertaining the world where the story takes place, you have to connect the dots one by one as they're given to you (either shown or told). That would include demographics. Since the ethnicity of people in that world is not something throughly explored (mostly because it usually doesn't matter), in order to think a person of color is somehow out of place would require you to assume the internal consistency is borrowed from a real place and real moment. Say, unless otherwise stated, the world I'm exploring is similar to medieval France. Which is mostly fine, authors don't explicitly give you a real world connection but you usually can connect the dots. But when the author inevitably breaks away from that connection ("unless otherwise stated"), if that detail doesn't fundamentally change the way that world operates, why bother? It's not like the author owes any consistency to a real setting.

The author can do that if they wish but a certain portion of their audience is going to find it jarring and I think I have laid out a plausible and justifiable reason as to why. If I am watching a fantasy based on ancient China or feudal Japan I really don't want a white person out of nowhere even with an internally consistent reason, much less without one.