War Room Lounge V43: STEM is Overrated

[Jack V Savage]

Yes, of course, of course. As far as the symbolism.....all of it is extremely telegraphed: the green light (the jealous longing for money, love lost, the American dream), the East/West Egg (old/new money), the valley of ashes (the proletariat underclass), etc. Even as a high schooler, I thought, "wow, this is really dumbed down."

OK, I won't disagree that it can apply, but I think it's mostly just good storytelling to sort of abbreviate stuff like that. I don't see it as something that's supposed to be a discovery that the reader makes as much as just taken for granted that they'll be picked up. It's a fine line, I guess, between short hand communication and symbolism.

BTW, did you see this:

https://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_nick_carraway_gay/

@NoDak, thoughts?

 

[Trotsky]

In all fairness, Cosmo Alexandre is an absolutely legit striker. They set Sage up for failure. First you put him in a ring, then you throw him to a guy that was up there with the top Thais at one point in his career. Dude was primed to get starched.

Cosmo's moves are devastating

 

[Happy Man]

Who is he?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/internet-defends-aocs-bin-raccoon-boyfriend

 

[Jack V Savage]

Why? You mean because of his looks? No, I don't think the "indentitarian" left cares at all that she is dating an average looking guy. She's average looking herself. And, frankly, I generally presume that those who are foaming to sexualize her have never been with an relatively attractive woman. But even if I was for some reason preoccupied with why she didn't make a more shallow choice of a partner, I wouldn't express that curiosity by talking about them having sex and about him cumming inside her.

You think she's average looking? People love to post bad pics of her, but in that video of her dancing and some other shots, she's way above average, IMO. She's no Amanda Seyfried, but I don't know of any place where the average adult woman looks that good. And I've been with plenty of attractive women.

 

[Jack V Savage]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/internet-defends-aocs-bin-raccoon-boyfriend

Why would it upset anyone that she's dating a dude who isn't really good-looking?

 

[Trotsky]

OK, I won't disagree that it can apply, but I think it's mostly just good storytelling to sort of abbreviate stuff like that. I don't see it as something that's supposed to be a discovery that the reader makes as much as just taken for granted that they'll be picked up. It's a fine line, I guess, between short hand communication and symbolism.

BTW, did you see this:

https://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_nick_carraway_gay/

@NoDak, thoughts?

No, I didn't see that. But I'm initially skeptical. I know the book describes Carraway as somewhat sexually disinterested in the beautiful Jordan and as in awe of Gatsby at times, which are the two things that stick out in my memory as being consistent with that impression, but I think they serve different functions. The second time I read it, actually, it was only a month or so after I wrote a long literary analysis on what I argued were the lesbian undertones of another novel (which I would find out in later years of better internet was not a novel analysis, as I thought it was), so I'd think I'd have picked up on something if it were there.

 

[Trotsky]

You think she's average looking? People love to post bad pics of her, but in that video of her dancing and some other shots, she's way above average, IMO. She's no Amanda Seyfried, but I don't know of any place where the average adult woman looks that good. And I've been with plenty of attractive women.

Yeah, I mean average as in the middle third of the population. 60 percentile range. I think most people are average looking, as in, if I saw her on the street, I wouldn't double take. Also, I consider myself average looking, and I've been with much better looking women.

 

[all caps]

Airstrikes in Syria?

 

[BarryDillon]

Airstrikes in Syria?

 

[all caps]

Sounds like something may be going down but cant check rn

 

[Cajun]

After the fact, yes. Initially? Kind of, I guess. Nobody was expecting much from that movie, though. They were bitching about pretty much everything. Afflect got the most heat, and he was arguably the only thing worth a damn in those flicks.

Affleck was much better than what I expected. 1000x above my expectations

 

[Cajun]

I remember the first time he talked as Batman and looking around like “isn’t this bad?” but then it passed after a scene.

No doubt. He actually did a solid Bruce Wayne. That sold it.

 

[Jack V Savage]

No, I didn't see that. But I'm initially skeptical. I know the book describes Carraway as somewhat sexually disinterested in the beautiful Jordan and as in awe of Gatsby at times, which are the two things that stick out in my memory as being consistent with that impression, but I think they serve different functions. The second time I read it, actually, it was only a month or so after I wrote a long literary analysis on what I argued were the lesbian undertones of another novel (which I would find out in later years of better internet was not a novel analysis, as I thought it was), so I'd think I'd have picked up on something if it were there.

Only somewhat interested in Jordan (and trying to force himself to be more), whom describes as sort of manly; describes Daisy, who is likely a real stunner, in pretty muted terms (her voice being what he finds most notable); describes Myrtle, who likely is also a stunner, in ways that make her seem pretty unappealing (when I read it before thinking about that angle, I figured she was kind of chunky and unattractive); describes Tom like this:

He had changed since his New Haven years. Now he was a sturdy straw-haired man of thirty with a rather hard mouth and a supercilious manner. Two shining arrogant eyes had established dominance over his face and gave him the appearance of always leaning aggressively forward. Not even the effeminate swank of his riding boots could hide the enormous power of that body — he seemed to fill those glistening boots until he strained the top lacing, and you could see a great pack of muscle shifting when his shoulder moved under his thin coat. It was a body capable of enormous leverage — a cruel body.

Clearly smitten with Gatsby, though even without interpreting Nick as gay, I think that's uncontroversial.

Also, his family is kind of concerned about him, suggesting that there's something off but it isn't clear why. And he pretty clearly hooks up with a guy he described as "feminine" earlier. That's probably the key to the whole thing. I remember reading that part and thinking it was odd but just moving on as if "I guess that's what they did." Feels stupid to have kind of missed the significance of that myself, though apparently there's no record of anyone noting it until 1979.

Yeah, I mean average as in the middle third of the population. 60 percentile range. I think most people are average looking, as in, if I saw her on the street, I wouldn't double take. Also, I consider myself average looking, and I've been with much better looking women.

Middle third of 20-40-year-old women who aren't fat, I'd buy; middle third of the adult female population, no.

 

[Trotsky]

Middle third of 20-40-year-old women who aren't fat, I'd buy; middle third of the adult female population, no.

Lol, that's what I mean.....well, just middle third of women around my/her age in general.

 

[BarryDillon]

Lol, that's what I mean.....well, just middle third of women around my/her age in general.

Missouri is probably awash with hogs.

 

[Gregolian]

Missouri is probably awash with hogs.

Not Missouri but still

 

[Fawlty]

Missouri is probably awash with hogs.

Oh man it's not good to be awash with hogs I know that much

 

[Fedorable]

Grumpy cat died and you guys are talking about something as insignificant as abortion still. Perspective gentlemen.

 

[Fawlty]

Grumpy cat died and you guys are talking about something as insignificant as abortion still. Perspective gentlemen.

What was the cause of death?

I have a pending thousand dollar bet on "trampled to death by a Cantabrian circle."

 

[Trotsky]

OK, I won't disagree that it can apply, but I think it's mostly just good storytelling to sort of abbreviate stuff like that. I don't see it as something that's supposed to be a discovery that the reader makes as much as just taken for granted that they'll be picked up. It's a fine line, I guess, between short hand communication and symbolism.

BTW, did you see this:

https://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_nick_carraway_gay/

@NoDak, thoughts?

So I read the article (twice) and then read several other articles and forum discussions on the topic....and, yeah, I'm not sold. Both of those scenes with McKee further hit upon Caraway's condition as a passenger in life, where things are out of his control and disillusioning and nauseating.

I also think the Salon review (which is not the strongest on this subject imo) is grasping to make The Great Gatsby greater than what it is: a bourgeois melodrama in the style of The Graduate about the existential woes of the supremely privileged. That seems more contemptuous than it really is, though, since no amount of privilege can save one from becoming disillusioned by the human condition, let alone when it's exaggerated into some of its most nauseating expressions against the backdrop of bunch of coastal socialites spending fortunes on grand parties during a period of great suffering and a man who often appears a super hero constantly pining over an emotionally and intellectually vapid and self-obsessed piece of shit. I think one can rightly sympathize with Carraway or despise him (I both sympathize with him and despise him and the part of me that identifies with him so much) with his window gazing, introverted brooding, and implicit moral pessimism while being not only born into privilege but being affirmatively dragged into the most exclusive heights of society despite his being a total bore.