War Room Lounge V27: Hey 2018, it's uh, it's time to go, Bud. Just go. (also let's talk about socks)

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Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Idi Amin
7. Mao Zedong
8. Kim Jong-Il
9. Francisco Franco
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA
 
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Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA
No real way to answer that bud. There's evil, and there's means to execute it. It all washes out the same.
 
No real way to answer that bud. There's evil, and there's means to execute it. It all washes out the same.

I fucking knew you would.

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Ceaușescu is my top ten dark horse. A real motherfucker, that one.
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA
I'll make that the next thread tonight or tomorrow. Remind my dumb ass if I forget.
 
For what it's worth, Francisco Franco would be on my list
 
warning for parents:

do not let your kids watch Netflix's Mowgli. there is a death darker than bambi's mother dying.


not sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone, it sucks anyway.
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

That's a pretty solid list, maybe I wouldn't rate Saddam as highly though. As big of a piece of shit as he was, his sons probably topped him in that regard, in the level of personal evil they were willing to commit. Mussolini, to me, was a bit of a puppy, certainly far from the man he portrayed himself to be, someone who got "stuck" in bad company with Hitler (Mussolini himself had entertained hopes of aligning his regime with other Western powers). Then again, his fascist ideology did spawn a dozen pretenders each of whom caused a large amount of chaos and violence.

Something that is said to be about almost all of these guys, is that they were often not truly the most evil men in their regime, just the greatest enablers of evil, because of their power. Even Hitler. His level of personal malevolence pales compared to someone like a Himmler or a Mengele, who were more "hands on" with the process, while Hitler hid in his bunker, entertaining romantic fantasies of a brutal war. Impersonally though, he was, of course, capable of projecting an immense amount of hatred against his deemed "enemies", which was then put to practise by the brutes who had rallied around his banner.

The thing that puts Stalin at the top of my list is that he was undoubtedly the man who was pushing the regime towards brutality, who himself signed off the "death warrants", and rarely lost an opportunity to encourage others to adopt cruel methods in place of humane ones. He had many "Himmlers" of his own, and he executed several of them, once they were no longer of use, made scapegoats for the brutality that was ultimately done in Stalin's name. Pol Pot is said to have been of a similar ilk, although we know less about him. But we certainly know how deadly he was relative to the system he was in control of. He wiped out about as many people as he was capable of.

Pol Pot may well have been the worst of them, as far as just how much he was able to do relative to how much he had available, as even Stalin did avoid "unnecessary" levels of genocide. The complexity of his character shows in how he was able to completely switch his stance towards Germans post-WW2, denouncing WW2-era "hard-liners" (which he had gathered around him during war-time) and attempting to portray a more "humane", softer side to his regime, so that he could persuade Germans to adopt Communism, instead of seeking Western aid. A common response, from almost any human being, even a border-line saint, would have been to "avenge" the millions of Soviet soldiers and civilians that were lost, by adopting a hard-line stance against Germans, but Stalin was only interested in greater levels of power and control, and he saw Germans as malleable as anything else, no different from anyone else that fell under the spell of his propaganda.
 
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Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

Surprised to see Idi Amin over Franco on that list. Atleast Franco moved on to a more pragmatist stance as time passed on, "the white terror" ebbed out after the civil war. I find him completely uncomparable to Idi Amin who should really be higher up on the list.

Idi Amins reign was just pure brutal insanity from start to finish. Mass killings, mass expulsions, all on his behalf. He really was the personification of the caricature of an insane dictator.
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

Obviously P4P discussions are always difficult, but I gotta do Evil Math.

What, in your opinion, makes Idi Amin less evil than Mussolini?

Or Franco?
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

Solid list of atrocity architects.

I'm going with:
1. Hitler
2. Pol Pot
3. Mao Zedong
4. Kim Il-sung (Un, little Kim, all a special class of reprobate.)
5. Joseph Stalin
6. Benito Mussolini
7. Hideki Tojo
8. Saddam
9. Bagosora
10. Lenin (Could have gone with Duc Thang)

I was also thinking, I do not read biographies (almost ever,) but would like to read a biography about Tito, not Ortiz.
 
Obviously P4P discussions are always difficult, but I gotta do Evil Math.

What, in your opinion, makes Idi Amin less evil than Mussolini?

Or Franco?

I gave some evil points to architects of evil.

Mussolini rubbed his fascist lamp all over the world, and Lenin, to go along the brutality, introduced us all to Uncle Joe.
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA
I know it's personal with you and Stalin after he killed you but I don't think he was that bad, he did what had to be done to make the Soviet Union survive. Pol Pot, on the other hand, was just a dick.
I'd also put Omar Al-Bashir somewhere.



Some news from Brazil:
We will not leave the Paris Agreement.
You do not need a special permit to buy a gun for your home or establishment now, you still cannot carry it and you still need to follow the rules like having a safe, being over 25, no convictions, psychological tests etc. Before the executive order you could follow all the rules and still get your permit denied arbitrarily.
 


Hey guys, Mayor McTrump wants to know if you guys like steamed covfefe and hamberders...for reasons
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

The kulaks deserved worse, Trots.
 
I know it's personal with you and Stalin after he killed you but I don't think he was that bad, he did what had to be done to make the Soviet Union survive. Pol Pot, on the other hand, was just a dick.
I'd also put Omar Al-Bashir somewhere.



Some news from Brazil:
We will not leave the Paris Agreement.
You do not need a special permit to buy a gun for your home or establishment now, you still cannot carry it and you still need to follow the rules like having a safe, being over 25, no convictions, psychological tests etc. Before the executive order you could follow all the rules and still get your permit denied arbitrarily.

Did he really need to have his secret service goons execute millions, suppressing "dissent" (which included having pretty much any type of contrarian opinion to Stalin's doctrine), starve out peasant populations, and turn Lenin's comparatively "democratic" regime (atleast in the sense that it had popular support) to an utterly tyrannical one-man rule, where everybody lived in fear?

I don't think he needed to do all of those things. I think they were the result of his criminal and paranoid personality, which saw any sort of sentimental or humane weakness as giving room for his potential ousting from power. He was more fit to be the head of a criminal conspiracy than the leader of nations.

If you don't think Stalin was "that bad", I reckon you just don't know much about him. Hitler was a humanitarian by comparison, atleast he, to some degree, "cared for his own". Stalin did not give a shit if millions of Russians died, even by his own hand, as long as he achieved his objectives. By the time WW2 was over, he had already immediately forgotten about the men who fought and died to bail out his regime, and had a large number of them placed back in the gulags.

This was a man, who in my opinion, did possess great leadership qualities, but who was simply too much of a savage to be allowed to be granted that much power over people's lives. The worst of the worst, as far as just impassionate, completely amoral, almost mechanical, systemic "evil".
 
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Did he really need to have his secret service goons execute millions, suppressing "dissent" (which included having pretty much any type of contrarian opinion to Stalin's doctrine), starve out peasant populations, and turn Lenin's comparatively "democratic" regime to an utterly tyrannical one-man rule, where everybody lived in fear?

I don't think he needed to all of those things. I think they were the result of his criminal and paranoid personality, which saw any sort of sentimental or humane weakness as giving room for his potential ousting from power.

If you don't think Stalin was "that bad", I reckon you just don't know much about him. Hitler was a humanitarian by comparison, atleast he, to some degree, "cared for his own". Stalin did not give a shit if millions of Russians died as long as he achieved his objectives. By the time WW2 was over, he had already immediately forgotten about the men who fought and died to bail out his regime, and had a large number of them placed back in the gulags.
For one the Soviet Union was much less advanced than Germany and also had ethnic strife that kept it bordering on dissolution.
I'm really skeptical a softer way was possible to industrialize a feudal country that quickly and then survive the onslaught of the germans without dissent. Stalin was so effective that even while the germans were at the doors of Moscow there was basically no dissent among the red army.
Also, a lot of the stuff you mention wasn't done by Stalin himself, he got the USSR from Lenin and peasants were already starving and killing each other.
A lot of the atrocities were committed in very desperate times, as when he deported all the Chechens to Siberia, because the Chechens decided to side with Hitler during WW2. If he lost the Caucasus it was over for the Soviet Union.
Yes, some stuff like the Holodomor was not necessary.
 
For one the Soviet Union was much less advanced than Germany and also had ethnic strife that kept it bordering on dissolution.
I'm really skeptical a softer way was possible to industrialize a feudal country that quickly and then survive the onslaught of the germans without dissent. Stalin was so effective that even while the germans were at the doors of Moscow there was basically no dissent among the red army.
Also, a lot of the stuff you mention wasn't done by Stalin himself, he got the USSR from Lenin and peasants were already starving and killing each other.
A lot of the atrocities were committed in very desperate times, as when he deported all the Chechens to Siberia, because the Chechens decided to side with Hitler during WW2. If he lost the Caucasus it was over for the Soviet Union.
Yes, some stuff like the Holodomor was not necessary.

Stalin engineered a lot of the starving tactics during the Russian Civil War, to "punish" disobedient populations and to feed the Red Army, and Lenin silently gave them his acceptance. He was infamous for his war crimes, bank robberies, kidnapping, murder, before he had ever tasted that degree of power. He was Lenin's "mad dog" who was certainly useful in times of chaos, but a threat to him and his ideology in times of peace.

There were plenty of ways to industrialize Russia, just none of them would occur to the mind of a Stalin, who only knew one way of doing things, merciless brutality and terror. He frequently grew jealous of more educated minds, discredited them amongst his party, and had them executed. Thousands upon thousands of Russia's top intellect were murdered by his regime, often for no reason whatsoever than Stalin's ever-increasing paranoia. Stalin saw loyalty as a weakness, and rarely rewarded anything but stupidity and blind obedience on the part of his followers. He felt most comfortable amongst alcoholics and murderers, and refused to associate with anyone who wasn't drinking himself to a stupor (while Stalin himself remained mostly sober).

In one infamous case, he had old "horse lord" Buduyonny testify against the brilliant Tukhachevsky, an innovator in the area of "deep operational" strategy, that his encouraging of the use of tanks instead of horses, was a matter of trying to subvert the Soviet regime. Budyonny as a general ended up getting millions of Russians killed in WW2, with completely outdated war strategies, before Stalin finally replaced him and the rest of his own sycophant generals with actually competent generals, who followed the teachings of men that Stalin had put to the ground.
 
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read an interesting story from one of pol pots French students; he said pol pot could recite verlaine with ease, and was liked by his students. just shows that u never know what the ppl u come in contact with r capable of.
 
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