War Room Lounge V27: Hey 2018, it's uh, it's time to go, Bud. Just go. (also let's talk about socks)

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's a pretty solid list, maybe I wouldn't rate Saddam as highly though. As big of a piece of shit as he was, his sons probably topped him in that regard, in the level of personal evil they were willing to commit. Mussolini, to me, was a bit of a puppy, certainly far from the man he portrayed himself to be, someone who got "stuck" in bad company with Hitler (Mussolini himself had entertained hopes of aligning his regime with other Western powers). Then again, his fascist ideology did spawn a dozen pretenders each of whom caused a large amount of chaos and violence.

Something that is said to be about almost all of these guys, is that they were often not truly the most evil men in their regime, just the greatest enablers of evil, because of their power. Even Hitler. His level of personal malevolence pales compared to someone like a Himmler or a Mengele, who were more "hands on" with the process, while Hitler hid in his bunker, entertaining romantic fantasies of a brutal war. Impersonally though, he was, of course, capable of projecting an immense amount of hatred against his deemed "enemies", which was then put to practise by the brutes who had rallied around his banner.

The thing that puts Stalin at the top of my list is that he was undoubtedly the man who was pushing the regime towards brutality, who himself signed off the "death warrants", and rarely lost an opportunity to encourage others to adopt cruel methods in place of humane ones. He had many "Himmlers" of his own, and he executed several of them, once they were no longer of use, made scapegoats for the brutality that was ultimately done in Stalin's name. Pol Pot is said to have been of a similar ilk, although we know less about him. But we certainly know how deadly he was relative to the system he was in control of. He wiped out about as many people as he was capable of.

Pol Pot may well have been the worst of them, as far as just how much he was able to do relative to how much he had available, as even Stalin did avoid "unnecessary" levels of genocide. The complexity of his character shows in how he was able to completely switch his stance towards Germans post-WW2, denouncing WW2-era "hard-liners" (which he had gathered around him during war-time) and attempting to portray a more "humane", softer side to his regime, so that he could persuade Germans to adopt Communism, instead of seeking Western aid. A common response, from almost any human being, even a border-line saint, would have been to "avenge" the millions of Soviet soldiers and civilians that were lost, by adopting a hard-line stance against Germans, but Stalin was only interested in greater levels of power and control, and he saw Germans as malleable as anything else, no different from anyone else that fell under the spell of his propaganda.

As expected, very well said.

What pushes Saddam up the list, to me, is what I think Hitchens referred to as surplus violence: that, while Stalin heartlessly imprisoned and executed, Hussein rained down fear on the population by the systemic use or rape and torture and paranoia in excess of what could be rationally said to be useful to him. Stalin certainly used much more violence than was necessary and was utterly unmoved by it, but he (and most of the list) generally used it as a means to power, not as an ends in itself.

The most frightening aspect of Stalin, in my opinion, is the complete and utter lack of redeeming human qualities: lack of loyalty, lack of honesty or consistent principle, lack of empathy. He betrayed, imprisoned, executed, or drove to suicide everyone who he ever came in contact with. What he did to Lenin, someone that many persons such as myself do have affection for, is one of the most overlooked examples of Stalin's cruelty. Lenin did not want to be a demigod. His wife pleaded with Stalin, who was already disposed against her since she knew her husband's wishes to prevent Stalin from ascending to Secretary, to not betray Vladimir's wishes and erect him a cult of personality. But doing so could provide a platform for Stalin to ride Lenin's coattails and consolidate his own power. So he struck a reasonable compromise and put Lenin's face on everything and built a mausoleum in which Lenin's body would be preserved and displayed for all-time.

I know it's personal with you and Stalin after he killed you but I don't think he was that bad, he did what had to be done to make the Soviet Union survive. Pol Pot, on the other hand, was just a dick.

I would say you have it completely backwards. It's inarguable that Stalin committed violence far in excess of what was necessary for the USSR to thrive: if you are to use that line of logic for the famines or Holodomor, then so be it, but that does not apply to the thousands of political dissidents and rivals who were murdered. The guy executed almost every single member of the original Bolshevik Party. He imprisoned half of his own family. That he was some devoted patriot or socialist ideologue is frankly very offensive and the latter is the single worst myth about Stalin, since there is (a) little evidence that he was any sort of ideologue, and (b) no evidence that his model was any successful than Lenin's, which was far more libertarian, far more progressive, and far less brutal.

Pol Pot, on the other hand, was somewhat of an ideologue. While Stalin was a sociopath striking at anyone who posed any sort of threat to him, Pot actually did have an insane vision that underpinned his violence. His purges were to scrub his project of intellectuals and minorities, and his slaughters were to operationalize his model.
 
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Mao Zedong
7. Kim Jong-Il
8. Francisco Franco
9. Idi Amin
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

King Leopold should be on that list.
Saddam should be lower.
1. Adolf
2. Joey
3. Mao
4. Leo
5. PP
6. Saddam
7. Amin
8. The Kims
 
King Leopold should be on that list.
Saddam should be lower.
1. Adolf
2. Joey
3. Mao
4. Leo
5. PP
6. Saddam
7. Amin
8. The Kims

I considered not including any of the Kim's (Un wouldn't be eligible anyways since it's 20th century). For Il-Song it's hard to extricate his actions from the history around him. For Jong-Il, he was almost (almost) a too-pathetic figure to regard as evil. He was shy, weak, unintelligent, woefully incompetent, and looked like a woman. But since his one lasting contribution to the DPRK was the cult of personality, and his own reign was riddled by Trump-level incompetence and mismanagement, he gets the nod.
 
I considered not including any of the Kim's (Un wouldn't be eligible anyways since it's 20th century). For Il-Song it's hard to extricate his actions from the history around him. For Jong-Il, he was almost (almost) a too-pathetic figure to regard as evil. He was shy, weak, unintelligent, woefully incompetent, and looked like a woman. But since his one lasting contribution to the DPRK was the cult of personality, and his own reign was riddled by Trump-level incompetence and mismanagement, he gets the nod.
And apologies I saw "evil" and a list and missed the 20th century part. Leo was 19th century I believe.
 
Something that hasn't been given much weight in this discussion is the ability of a dictator to terrify people at all times, in the privacy of their minds, turning them against each other in their legit paranoia. Stalin, Saddam, the Kims were/are all very good at that. Utter a whisper about anything you weren't supposed to, no matter where and when, and there was a strong chance that even your own family and dearest friends would turn you in. You might even be driven mad enough to turn yourself in. Stalin liked people turning each other in for nothing whatsoever, even by quota, decimation. That's a level of evil even deeper than wholesale slaughter, imo. Lots of leaders have killed tons of their people, but not all of them are able to make their people's every waking moment a terror. North Korea is notable for achieving this plus slavery, plus forced worship.
 
And apologies I saw "evil" and a list and missed the 20th century part. Leo was 19th century I believe.

I googled him and he died in like 1908, so you're still good ;)

And I wasn't familiar with him, so I learned a bit.
 
Is this too bitchy?

So, I think I still need PSE money from Jared and Andrew. Also, going forward I am not really willing to cover for people as it feels like pulling teeth to get money from everyone on time (I know you were out of the state Carl). Because I covered PSE out of pocket myself for everyone it has put me behind on paying my student loan, almost put me behind on my truck payment, and also caused me to be late or near late on other payments.

Thanks
Message I am debating dropping in my household group chat to my other roommates.
 
That's downright polite imo lol
Bad roommates are the worst
My thing is it's WA... you never know how people will react to shit up here

I'm browsing shit on Craigslist just in case sending that out burns bridges.

EDIT:
Message dropped.
 
Last edited:
Lounge Thread Poll Question: Who was the most "evil" political figure of the 20th century?

My personal rankings, after some deliberation:

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Pol Pot
3. Adolf Hitler
4. Saddam Hussein
5. Benito Mussolini
6. Idi Amin
7. Mao Zedong
8. Kim Jong-Il
9. Francisco Franco
10. Augusto Pinochet

@Limbo Pete @InternetHero @TheGreatA

Papa Doc or his kid could be up there. Maybe more top 15ish.
 
Papa Doc or his kid could be up there. Maybe more top 15ish.
The story of why the US didn't come down on Papa Doc and his kid but chose to go after Castro is one of the most fucked up things in US history. It basically boils down to Castro claiming to be communist.
 
So the account is in your name and it fucks your credit when it doesn't get paid? Didn't you move into an already established household?
Yeah..... but no one took the fucking bill and we were late so I took it cause I didn’t want to go without electricity
 
Just curious, but in academia, is it now acceptable to use as credible sources Pierre Molyneaux and Sargon of Akkad? Like if a professor/assistant is marking a paper, are they people acceptable to cite? And if not, is it because of bias in academia?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top