WAR ROOM LOUNGE V23: November Sixth LOOMS

[PEB]

 

[Captain Davis]

Cap, I'll say this without insults, but I think you're just flat wrong. You're both-siding an issue that isn't affecting both sides.

The basic issue is that the GOP has been totally taken over by oligarchs at the institutional level (I think you agree but it's not the same on the left). Their policy preferences are very unpopular (even with their own base) so to win, they have to play identity politics to divide people, lie about their policies, promote general cynicism, and fight against democracy. None of that applies to the other party, as their policy preferences are popular, majoritarianism benefits them, and more participation (which cynicism works against) benefits them.

So, the Democrats policies are so popular that Trump won the last election. Gotcha.

And really? The GOP plays identity politics moreso than the Democrats??? C’mon bud, even you don’t believe this, but you are such a homer that you have to.

For any of the fiscal policies that could be agreeable from the Democrats, their social issue agenda is so ridiculous that average people can’t embrace it.

 

[Captain Davis]

Cap, I'll say this without insults, but I think you're just flat wrong. You're both-siding an issue that isn't affecting both sides.

The basic issue is that the GOP has been totally taken over by oligarchs at the institutional level (I think you agree but it's not the same on the left). Their policy preferences are very unpopular (even with their own base) so to win, they have to play identity politics to divide people, lie about their policies, promote general cynicism, and fight against democracy. None of that applies to the other party, as their policy preferences are popular, majoritarianism benefits them, and more participation (which cynicism works against) benefits them.

Also, what has changed in the last 20 years? We are still bickering over the same shit Jack.

 

[all caps]

Also, what has changed in the last 20 years? We are still bickering over the same shit Jack.

The system is so perfect. Voters just get younger and younger. I remember my views when i was young. Nobody could tell me shit. I had it all figured out

 

[Captain Davis]

The system is so perfect. Voters just get younger and younger. I remember my views when i was young. Nobody could tell me shit. I had it all figured out

We all have issues that we support. We also have only 2 viable choices. That’s why we latch to one side or the other, but the idea that these wealthy politicians on either side give two shits about common people is laughable.

 

[Captain Davis]

The system is so perfect. Voters just get younger and younger. I remember my views when i was young. Nobody could tell me shit. I had it all figured out

The old saying, if you are under 30 and not a liberal, you have no heart and if you’re over 30 and not a conservative, you have no brain, is so true.

 

[all caps]

We all have issues that we support. We also have only 2 viable choices. That’s why we latch to one side or the other, but the idea that these wealthy politicians on either side give two shits about common people is laughable.

Agree. And it's not even so much that the politicians are malicious and purposely trying to fuck us, but theres so much pressure from everywhere. How the fuck would they even have time to address issues nameless faceless people like us have

 

[Captain Davis]

Agree. And it's not even so much that the politicians are malicious and purposely trying to fuck us, but theres so much pressure from everywhere. How the fuck would they even have time to address issues nameless faceless people like us have

Most people who get into politics are wealthy before they even get into it. They don’t relate to us.

Until I see a politician who wants what’s best for everyone, not this group or that group, I can’t get excited about supporting them.

 

[Jack V Savage]

So, the Democrats policies are so popular that Trump won the last election. Gotcha.

Really try to understand the point instead of reacting defensively to it.

And really? The GOP plays identity politics moreso than the Democrats??? C’mon bud, even you don’t believe this, but you are such a homer that you have to.

For any of the fiscal policies that could be agreeable from the Democrats, their social issue agenda is so ridiculous that average people can’t embrace it.

See, this is just making my point. Your understanding of Democrats' social agenda isn't coming from Democrats; it's coming from right-wing sources that know that their policy agenda is unpopular and so are trying to get you to think in terms of "Republicans are the party for white Southerners." And, yes, of course they play identity politics much, much more than Democrats do.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Also, what has changed in the last 20 years? We are still bickering over the same shit Jack.

I don't really get the question. We had three rounds of massive regressive tax cuts that shifted wealth to the rich under two different Republican presidents and a Republican Congress for most of it. We've had regulatory changes that benefit employers over workers, polluters over the public, companies over consumers, etc. In between, we had some reversal of the damage, a huge expansion of the EITC, massive healthcare reform, financial reform (consumer protections and systemic safety), etc. There are huge differences between the agendas of the two parties.

 

[waiguoren]

See, this is just making my point. Your understanding of Democrats' social agenda isn't coming from Democrats; it's coming from right-wing sources that know that their policy agenda is unpopular and so are trying to get you to think in terms of "Republicans are the party for white Southerners." And, yes, of course they play identity politics much, much more than Democrats do.

Why do you do this? Stop talking about "The Democrats" and "The Republicans" and your life would be filled with a lot less pointless disagreements. Obviously there are prominent Democrats who play the identity politics game. Here's a recent example:




On the other hand, you can surely produce examples of prominent Republicans making statements that you say would be examples of "identity politics".

It's probably better to speak about individuals rather than about a group that contains hundreds or thousands of people by treating the group as a monolith.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

I remember my views when i was young. Nobody could tell me shit. I had it all figured out

I think the self awareness you describe here is a necessary corollary to maintaining a certain emotional detachment from politics. It's not enough to see that my team neither won nor lost in the last election. I also have to maintain an emotional detachment from my own political views.

I think keeping politics and political philosophy at a polite distance from our own personal interests helps us not get sucked into the partisanship that so easily tempts us, but also keeps us persuadable and makes it much easier to get long with others with whom we disagree. To paraphrase the old saw, I don't live to vote, I vote to live.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Why do you do this? Stop talking about "The Democrats" and "The Republicans" and your life would be filled with a lot less pointless disagreements.

There are no "the"s in front of "Democrats" and "Republicans" in my post.

Obviously there are prominent Democrats who play the identity politics game. Here's a recent example:

Sure, but the GOP is running on it. That was Trump's whole campaign, for example.

It's probably better to speak about individuals rather than about a group that contains hundreds or thousands of people by treating the group as a monolith.

But policy-making and political strategy is a collective effort. Collectively, the GOP's policy agenda is highly unpopular, even with their own voters. They are well aware of that, and as a national party, the approach is to try to undermine democracy, to try to turn politics into a battle of identities, and to lie about their policies.

 

[Captain Davis]

Really try to understand the point instead of reacting defensively to it.



See, this is just making my point. Your understanding of Democrats' social agenda isn't coming from Democrats; it's coming from right-wing sources that know that their policy agenda is unpopular and so are trying to get you to think in terms of "Republicans are the party for white Southerners." And, yes, of course they play identity politics much, much more than Democrats do.

You are just wrong Jack. Of course, both parties play to their bases, but I can see with my own eyes the agendas that both parties push. The social policies such as LGBT, immigration, affirmative action, and entitlement services, are so far out there. The Republicans aren’t telling me that, Nancy Pelosi does.

 

[waiguoren]

@Jack V Savage

You say Republicans play identity politics much more than Democrats do. How would you go about quantifying that? Obviously a majority of this board disagrees with you.

 

[Jack V Savage]

@Jack V Savage

You say Republicans play identity politics much more than Democrats do. How would you go about quantifying that? Obviously a majority of this board disagrees with you.

I don't know that a majority does, but I think it's clear that a lot of people weirdly *define* identity politics in a way that answers the question. Like, supporting SSM = "identity politics." But under an accurate definition--campaigning on the basis of identity groupings rather than serious policy issues--it's basically all the GOP does. Trump wasn't running on cutting taxes for rich people (in fact, he said he'd make *progessive* changes to fiscal policy and would protect entitlements!); he was running on "minorities are taking over the country and I got white people's backs."

You probably can come up with a way to quantify it, and I'm sure it would back me up if it were reasonable. I don't think it's remotely close, really.

 

[waiguoren]

[Trump] was running on "minorities are taking over the country and I got white people's backs."

I know that you know that Trump never said that or anything like that.

How far do we get to reach in putting words in the mouths of others? I suspect you get very accusatory when people do that to Democrats.

 

[Higus]

We all have issues that we support. We also have only 2 viable choices. That’s why we latch to one side or the other, but the idea that these wealthy politicians on either side give two shits about common people is laughable.

Ah, the ole' "Both sides suck, so vote Republican" argument.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I know that you know that Trump never said that or anything like that.

How far do we get to reach in putting words in the mouths of others? I suspect you get very accusatory when people do that to Democrats.

It's not much of a reach. Whipping up hysteria about Mexican immigrants was the top focus of the campaign, was it not? That or anti-Muslim sentiment. And an imaginary crime wave in cities was another big part of his campaign.

 

[waiguoren]

It's not much of a reach. Whipping up hysteria about Mexican immigrants was the top focus of the campaign, was it not?

No, illegal immigration from all sources was the top focus. That's not "identity politics" unless you define the "identity" to be "illegal immigrants". That's a big stretch though.

That or anti-Muslim sentiment.

This is actually a good example. The "Muslim ban" thing during the campaign (not the subsequent travel ban, which multiple Democrats and MSM people conflated with the "Muslim ban" unfairly) was a clear example of identity politics and I don't see how anyone could deny it.

And an imaginary crime wave in cities was another big part of his campaign.

I don't think Trump ever asserted that crime was on the rise, so I'll call BS here.