Vitamin-C Pre Workout?

I am saying you are woryying about supplements before you understand nutrition. Protein synthesis, the rate of it, and what that entails is all that you should really be worrying about. Any carb/protein meal does that PWO. If blood flow made every muscle grow, we would all have 12 inch units.
 
*pulls up deck chair*


*breaks out popcorn*


oo, this is going to get interesting
 
By no means am I saying I understand everything. But at the sametime pre's are an effective tool to keep you in the gym longer and keep you Anabolic so you tear the muscle more to get bigger 'guns'. So why not try to make your pre work more effectively? Because if protein alone made your workout better then we'd be eating protein before our workout.
 
Pre's that serve a purpose and have merit, sure they have their place. Staying longer doesn't make you more anabolic. After 45 minutes it declines.

Because what you are describing doesn't work how you think it does, it works have the reps have said.

As for protein pre wo. What do you think aminos are? Vendetta? Supplements with EAA and BCAA before workout.

I thought supps were your forte?
You want a study on that too? let me find it, and it has nothing to do with the products you are mentioning.
 
From Alan

"PREWORKOUT

OBJECTIVE

the objective here is to promote sustained carbohydrate & amino acid availability, minimize muscle catabolism, and spare glygogen as much as possible. it's important to note here that research is quite conflicting on the issue of GI & exercise performance. much of the latest studies show no real difference. the actual amount & physical nature of the meal depends on how soon your schedule allows you to eat or drink before training. there are at least 2 acceptable scenarios..

COMPOSITION

scenario one: a solid, full-sized balanced meal finished 60-90 minutes preworkout consisting of 30-60g protein (0.2-0.25g/lb target BW) + 40-80g carb (0.33g/lb target BW). there are endless examples of how this can be constructed, & heres just one:
---- 5-8oz of any type of land or sea animal flesh
---- 1-2 cups of whole grain product or starchy vegetable or legume /or/ fistsize sweet potato, etc. Have your preference, focus on total amount rather than food subtype.
---- 1 or more cups fibrous vegetable like salad greens, broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, spinach, kale, cabbage, onions, even carrots, etc, etc

[or]

scenario two: a liquid meal or shake finished 30-0 min preworkout:
---- 20-50g protein (0.15-0.2g/lb target BW). Whey is preferred for its BCAA content & gastric tolerability for most.
---- 40-80g (0.33g/lb target BW). Any fruit works well here, so does old fashioned oats. a solid case can be built for a combination of both. whether you include water/milk is a matter of digestive tolerance. milk just gets the anabolic/anticatabolic cascades rolling for those in a severe hurry to gain muscle. adding fat to this shake can slow the release of nutrients & benefit those who train for significantly more than 90 min, offering extra protection against energy dips - especially if you don't consume a dilute carb solution during your workout. note that most people will do fine without the fat.

to reiterate the factor of individual differences, don't be afraid to go outside of the listed guidelines & exceed the upper limit of listed carb intake as needed to power you through your training. conversely, don't be afraid to dip below it given your gastrointestinal tolerance for exogenous substrate during or pretraining.
"
 
Here is a study for you.


Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.

Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
 
Yes branch chains help you a ton such as digest more protein which itself is a complex chain of aminos but in fighting off muscle fatigue it will keep your muscles nourished and be anabolic. Most pre's are only gunna be in the body for an hour anyway. The fact that they are liquid is a double edged sword they are fast acting which of course means digestion. Vitamin c doesn't make it last longer just makes the effects more effective. The muscle can only absorb so much of anything if you wanted to absorb more that would be whey peptide fractions and alpha lipoic acid
 
Its not even a hour on most, and far more than that on others. Show me ONE SIGLE study that says Vitamin C improves protein absorption or aminos for that fact.

More than that? Seriously there is a point where its to much. Man, really, you need to get back to the basics. ALA and whey fractions can't force your body to take on more nutrients.
 
Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (&gt;1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.







You want me to keep going? Come up with something good, I am becoming bored.
 
[irll=http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/01.RES.0000049166.33035.62v1]Long-Term Vitamin C Treatment Increases Vascular Tetrahydrobiopterin Levels and Nitric Oxide Synthase Activity -- d'Uscio et al., 10.1161/01.RES.0000049166.33035.62 -- Circulation Research[/url]. I'm so confused by everything that has to do with pre's I don't know what to say or do other than say school me more.
 
So yet again, that has what to do with muscle building? Getting the "pump" etc doesn't mean shit to growth. How many more ways do I have to say it.? People say all sorts of the shit at the gym I work at, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about by any means.
 
So, here's my question... if you were in my place would you say, screw it and drop PS or do you think that it's worth a shot since my training volume is temporary?

Monger I like your applied theory and would use PS in your case. The only change I'd make is to use it before training to blunt the exercise-induced cortisol release.

Keep us updated!
 
I feel like I'm disagreeing with everyone here.

-I use vitamin C with low-carb clients to minimize oxidation of ingested protein (the same thing that carbs do).

-pre-workout meals are the most anabolic supplement/nutritional practice we know of, largely because of the blood flow it stimulates.

I can't even tell if this is disagreeing...:icon_conf
 
Monger I like your applied theory and would use PS in your case. The only change I'd make is to use it before training to blunt the exercise-induced cortisol release.

Keep us updated!

Thanks for the feedback, David. Much appreciated.
 
Vedic, The pump has nothing to do with muscle growth. It has everything to do with the muscle getting blood flow and nutrients. And therefore being in a more anabolic state to build muscle if the nutrients such as protein/amino's are there.
 
That makes sense, why use an anti-oxidant when your body needs to use oxygen while working out. All you'd be doing is hindering your work. maybe?
 
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