International Virus outbreak in China (and elsewhere)

[MikeMcMann]

Several cities of millions quarantined yet only a handful of deaths? Excuse me while I call bullshit. Show no weakness and lie your ass off despite public knowledge is sop for communist leadership.

Yeah, something is odd in this history. Why the fuck, they would put megacities in quarantine with all the consequences that bring specially financially and economic impacts, if the dealth toll is so low?

Appears to me, they are lying about the real severity of the disease.

If I lock all of you on a plane with someone with a very contagious cold, all of you will likely get it given enough time and contact.

A virus like this grows exponentially and so if left to proliferate it soon could go from infecting a manageable number of people, to infecting everyone. Thus exposing the most vulnerable in the State which could see death rates soar.

Medical professionals have learned the lessons from the past that you isolate and attack these type of things as quick as you can and it seems that garners criticism, like 'why is there not more death's.

Look how farmers deal with similar disease outbreaks in their flocks. It's an instant cull often of all animals they see as at risk even if no signs show. It's not a BS threat because the farmer did a good preventative job. They know thru experience the cost of delayed action.

 

[Octavian]

poop in drinking water is natural and is good for training our immune system. It’s the chemicals they mix in with water that are destroying our bodies and immune system making it easier for us to get diseases.

I mean... you’ve gotta be fucking kidding me

 

[Octavian]

Like I said folks, if you want know if this is serious, watch the markets.

The money is saying this is serious this morning.

The markets are not a good daily barometer my man.

 

[b-hop]

If I lock all of you on a plane with someone with a very contagious cold, all of you will likely get it given enough time and contact.

A virus like this grows exponentially and so if left to proliferate it soon could go from infecting a manageable number of people, to infecting everyone. Thus exposing the most vulnerable in the State which could see death rates soar.

Medical professionals have learned the lessons from the past that you isolate and attack these type of things as quick as you can and it seems that garners criticism, like 'why is there not more death's.

Look how farmers deal with similar disease outbreaks in their flocks. It's an instant cull often of all animals they see as at risk even if no signs show. It's not a BS threat because the farmer did a good preventative job. They know thru experience the cost of delayed action.

I know that, but again if it was a minimal thing you wouldn't stop the airplane and losing all the revenue, the logistics all the stuff in order to stop a flu that you think as a low chance of causing death.

So still doesn't make any sense to close entire cities for a flu that they said only the old, or the very young could died from that. I put enface on the world could because. What the definition of high percentage of death tool is for us is not the same for them, so for them to close entire cities, I think is way more severe then what they are trying to pass, probably the death tool is way more.

 

[Cirris]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable "China Coronavirus Caused by Climate Change" article.

You know it's coming.

---------------------

14 day incubation period prior to symptoms; and the incubation period infectious. 20% severe respiratory(hospitalization) rate.

That seems like the perfect manufactured virus to me.

I'm still wondering if China's bio lab in Wuhan, which is near the epicenter of the original outbreak didn't play a roll in this.

I mean China ain't going to admit to shit. Even the numbers they give have to be suspect.

They didn't quarantine entire metropolis over SARS. They are genuinely spooked.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I know that, but again if it was a minimal thing you wouldn't stop the airplane and losing all the revenue, the logistics all the stuff in order to stop a flu that you think as a low chance of causing death.

So still doesn't make any sense to close entire cities for a flu that they said only the old, or the very young could died from that. I put enface on the world could because. What the definition of high percentage of death tool is for us is not the same for them, so for them to close entire cities, I think is way more severe then what they are trying to pass, probably the death tool is way more.

I think the bigger issue is that this is a new and unknown virus so they cannot look at previous history to predict patterns.

Is it potentially over kill? Maybe. But just imagine if this did turn out to be the pandemic of the century and in hindsight analysis it was judged they weren't cautious enough. There would be no forgiveness in the hindsight criticism. WHY did they not do more given the unknown factors when dealing with an airborne virus that is passed on before the infected even shows signs of having it?

Those last two factors make the potential of this threat so much more than a SARS even if in actuality it turns out not to be.

 

[PhitePhan]

They only spread in places where funding/supplies for childhood vaccination programs is limited, or communities where there are significant numbers who purposely don't have their kids vaccinated.

There are numerous cases of "fully vaccinated" populations having outbreaks, and recent science is showing your assertion about the unvaccinated being the cause of spreading disease to be untrue (at least partially).

Despite high rates of vaccination, pertussis cases are on the rise. Is a new vaccination strategy needed?
https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4460


Waning potency of pertussis vaccine a significant contributor to recent whooping cough outbreaks
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190610090106.htm

Unfortunately, it's not just dtap, but also the MMR that suffers from the same problem (both are live virus vaccines).

Decreased humoral immunity to mumps in young adults immunized with MMR vaccine in childhood
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190610090106.htm

An increasing, potentially measles-susceptible population over time after vaccination in Korea
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X17308551

We are also finding the same with the varicella vaccine.

One dose of varicella vaccine does not prevent school outbreaks: is it time for a second dose?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16740809/?i=2&from=/16322148/related

So far, the goalposts have been moved multiple times; from needing more than one vaccination after being assured of protection initially (sometimes leading to adult vulnerability and risk of more severe outcomes) to the now oft-repeated claim that the vaccine lessens the severity of the disease (this is brought up when confronted with evidence that the vaccinated actually catch and spread the disease).

What's more, recent study indicates that vaccinated individuals (live virus vaccines) shed and also pose a substantial risk for subclinical infection and transmission).

Asymptomatic Infection and Transmission of Pertussis in Households: A Systematic Review
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/70/1/152/5525423

Asymptomatic transmission and the resurgence of Bordetella pertussis
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-015-0382-8

Now, I'll admit that the MMR and even DTap seem to do well at preventing clinical cases and therefore reduce deaths associated with the same. However, the disease continues to spread and vaccinated individuals actually put others at risk (as noted above). It's also unclear what impact subclinical infection poses.

The potential role of subclinical Bordetella Pertussis colonization in the etiology of multiple sclerosis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0171298515301078

Besides, vaccine efficacy (which is obviously lacking as noted above) is but one side of the coin, the other more important side being what harms are caused by vaccinating? To date we have found problems already (e.g. MMR and epilepsy, polio and SV40) but the sad reality is that quality safety research surrounding "vaccination" is virtually non-existent so we have very little understanding of the risk/benefit ratio as a whole.

 

[TUFNewb]

There are numerous cases of "fully vaccinated" populations having outbreaks, and recent science is showing your assertion about the unvaccinated being the cause of spreading disease to be untrue (at least partially).

Despite high rates of vaccination, pertussis cases are on the rise. Is a new vaccination strategy needed?
https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4460


Waning potency of pertussis vaccine a significant contributor to recent whooping cough outbreaks
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190610090106.htm

Unfortunately, it's not just dtap, but also the MMR that suffers from the same problem (both are live virus vaccines).

Decreased humoral immunity to mumps in young adults immunized with MMR vaccine in childhood
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190610090106.htm

An increasing, potentially measles-susceptible population over time after vaccination in Korea
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X17308551

We are also finding the same with the varicella vaccine.

One dose of varicella vaccine does not prevent school outbreaks: is it time for a second dose?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16740809/?i=2&from=/16322148/related

So far, the goalposts have been moved multiple times; from needing more than one vaccination after being assured of protection initially (sometimes leading to adult vulnerability and risk of more severe outcomes) to the now oft-repeated claim that the vaccine lessens the severity of the disease (this is brought up when confronted with evidence that the vaccinated actually catch and spread the disease).

What's more, recent study indicates that vaccinated individuals (live virus vaccines) shed and also pose a substantial risk for subclinical infection and transmission).

Asymptomatic Infection and Transmission of Pertussis in Households: A Systematic Review
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/70/1/152/5525423

Asymptomatic transmission and the resurgence of Bordetella pertussis
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-015-0382-8

Now, I'll admit that the MMR and even DTap seem to do well at preventing clinical cases and therefore reduce deaths associated with the same. However, the disease continues to spread and vaccinated individuals actually put others at risk (as noted above). It's also unclear what impact subclinical infection poses.

The potential role of subclinical Bordetella Pertussis colonization in the etiology of multiple sclerosis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0171298515301078

Besides, vaccine efficacy (which is obviously lacking as noted above) is but one side of the coin, the other more important side being what harms are caused by vaccinating? To date we have found problems already (e.g. MMR and epilepsy, polio and SV40) but the sad reality is that quality safety research surrounding "vaccination" is virtually non-existent so we have very little understanding of the risk/benefit ratio as a whole.

Not gonna get into the weeds on this, it is off topic anyways. You'll always be able to pick a handful of exceptions like with anything in medicine, I could go find some which show something different and supports my ideals (confirmation bias), but in the grand scheme of things they have benefited civilization greatly. In general places that don't have access to these basic vaccines have vastly higher rates of infection and transmission. Maybe some stop working because viruses change or whatever that is not moving goal posts that is just part of the process. Nothing you posted indicates general population should avoid these common vaccines tbh. If there are side effects we should work to understand them better not fear monger and dismiss the entire practice as harmful.

 

[Strychnine]

poop in drinking water is natural and is good for training our immune system. It’s the chemicals they mix in with water that are destroying our bodies and immune system making it easier for us to get diseases.

Lyoto, is that you?

 

[PhitePhan]

Not gonna get into the weeds on this, it is off topic anyways. You'll always be able to pick a handful of exceptions like with anything in medicine, I could go find some which show something different and supports my ideals (confirmation bias), but in the grand scheme of things they have benefited civilization greatly. In general places that don't have access to these basic vaccines have vastly higher rates of infection and transmission. Maybe some stop working because viruses change or whatever that is not moving goal posts that is just part of the process. Nothing you posted indicates general population should avoid these common vaccines tbh. If there are side effects we should work to understand them better not fear monger and dismiss the entire practice as harmful.

You should take the high road and just admit you were wrong, no shame in that. After all, this is a very complex topic and generic broad assertions (e.g. "Safe and effecitve") are entirely insufficient.

 

[MikeMcMann]

You should take the high road and just admit you were wrong, no shame in that. After all, this is a very complex topic and generic broad assertions (e.g. "Safe and effecitve") are entirely insufficient.

He was wrong. You are cherry picking and drawing bad conclusions. It is not 100% efficacy or complete failure. And viruses also evolve requiring new medicines to catch up.


I say this as someone generally very skeptical about big pharma pushing way too many reasons to medicate everyone for everything.

 

[Richie Madano]

If I lock all of you on a plane with someone with a very contagious cold, all of you will likely get it given enough time and contact.

A virus like this grows exponentially and so if left to proliferate it soon could go from infecting a manageable number of people, to infecting everyone. Thus exposing the most vulnerable in the State which could see death rates soar.

Medical professionals have learned the lessons from the past that you isolate and attack these type of things as quick as you can and it seems that garners criticism, like 'why is there not more death's.

Look how farmers deal with similar disease outbreaks in their flocks. It's an instant cull often of all animals they see as at risk even if no signs show. It's not a BS threat because the farmer did a good preventative job. They know thru experience the cost of delayed action.

Good post. You should stick to threads like this because your politics are awful.

 

[PhitePhan]

He was wrong. You are cherry picking and drawing bad conclusions. It is not 100% efficacy or complete failure. And viruses also evolve requiring new medicines to catch up.


I say this as someone generally very skeptical about big pharma pushing way too many reasons to medicate everyone for everything.

Only in a debate about vaccination does one complain about a person providing peer reviewed scientific research! This sets up a literal impossibility- I can link a dozen studies supporting my position and you can STILL claim cherry picking while providing no actual rebuttal.

The reality is, we weren't told we'd need two (and likely three) MMR shots, or five dtap shots (maybe we need six now considering the limitations of our current vaccine)... or that each shot comes with an increased risk of adverse event.

What's interesting is that what I posted is not really controversial, other than to irrational vaccine proponents or those who are ignorant. This isn't something new but it does fly in the face of decades of poorly scrutinized claims by vaccine makers and proponents.

Also, exactly what "bad consclusions" am I drawing? In the above post I simply corrected an obvious misstatement. Feel free to correct me with peer reviewed literature.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Only in a debate about vaccination does one complain about a person providing peer reviewed scientific research! This sets up a literal impossibility- I can link a dozen studies supporting my position and you can STILL claim cherry picking while providing no actual rebuttal.

The reality is, we weren't told we'd need two (and likely three) MMR shots, or five dtap shots (maybe we need six now considering the limitations of our current vaccine)... or that each shot comes with an increased risk of adverse event.

What's interesting is that what I posted is not really controversial, other than to irrational vaccine proponents or those who are ignorant. This isn't something new but it does fly in the face of decades of poorly scrutinized claims by vaccine makers and proponents.

Also, exactly what "bad consclusions" am I drawing? In the above post I simply corrected an obvious misstatement. Feel free to correct me with peer reviewed literature.

I can post a peer reviewed on any midcial topic but then be wrong in how i utlize it in my discussion.

If you don't think so, pick a topic and I will post a peer reviewed article but then say things that are wrong about it.

So GTFOH with pretending that because you can post peer reviewed material that means how you explain or utilize it in arguments means you are correct.


There is all sorts of proof, in communities where people are refusing vaccines of things that were common 100 and 50 years ago, and were basically wiped out but now are making a return in those SPECIFIC areas where you are seeing high levels of people refusing to vaccinate their kids.

 

[PhitePhan]

I can post a peer reviewed on any midcial topic but then be wrong in how i utlize it in my discussion.

Sure, so how exactly am I utilizing the research wrongly?

So GTFOH with pretending that because you can post peer reviewed material that means how you explain or utilize it in arguments means you are correct.

I am very open to an actual rebuttal, but vague references to cherry picking and "wrongness" doesn't cut it... what's ironic is TUF specifically criticized another poster for NOT providing research then ducked the several studies I posted.

There is all sorts of proof, in communities where people are refusing vaccines of things that were common 100 and 50 years ago, and were basically wiped out but now are making a return in those SPECIFIC areas where you are seeing high levels of people refusing to vaccinate their kids.

Yes, and there is also all sorts of proof (as I referenced) that outbreaks occur in the opposite settings (i.e. in highly vaccinated communities). Are we allowed to talk about that? Don't you see that as relevant to the discussion of vaccination?

 

[MikeMcMann]

Sure, so how exactly am I utilizing the research wrongly?



I am very open to an actual rebuttal, but vague references to cherry picking and "wrongness" doesn't cut it... what's ironic is TUF specifically criticized another poster for NOT providing research then ducked the several studies I posted.



Yes, and there is also all sorts of proof (as I referenced) that outbreaks occur in the opposite settings (i.e. in highly vaccinated communities). Are we allowed to talk about that? Don't you see that as relevant to the discussion of vaccination?

You are saying:

- here are peer reviewed studies of instances of herd immunization failing
- therefore I conclude that herd immunization has no value
- only on sherdog do people disagree with peer reviewed material


No one is disagreeing point 1 there. They may disagree with you on how you draw conclusions to form point 2 and that does not mean they disagree with point 1.

And i have no issue with anyone talking about the failures of vaccines. The over reach (my opinion) of Big Pharma to push increasingly for the need for some type of vaccine or medication for any thing and everything. I know that big pharma sees the area of "Preventative Medicine" as the holy grail of profits. Once upon a time you only treated people once they got sick and then you only treated the sick. Thus a small percentage of the population. Preventative Medicine means giving every human medicine for things before they ever get sick. EVERY HUMAN. Its a gold mine as you are talking exponential increases in those being medicated. And then you have those who have adverse side effects to that medication and need a second and third medication. So it is the gift that keeps on giving for big pharma.

So yes citizens and gov't DO have to be skeptical and vigilant IMO.

But there should be no denying that in certain instances herd immunity had totally obliterated many ailments, ones that we can see clearly coming back in communities where they have opt out rights to such immunization and increasing numbers of people are choosing to opt out.

 

[Scerpi]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable "China Coronavirus Caused by Climate Change" article.

You know it's coming.

---------------------

14 day incubation period prior to symptoms; and the incubation period infectious. 20% severe respiratory(hospitalization) rate.

That seems like the perfect manufactured virus to me.

I'm still wondering if China's bio lab in Wuhan, which is near the epicenter of the original outbreak didn't play a roll in this.

I mean China ain't going to admit to shit. Even the numbers they give have to be suspect.

They didn't quarantine entire metropolis over SARS. They are genuinely spooked.

Yeah... the 14 day incubation period is the kicker. I just rechecked the timelines and the first reported cases outside of China (Thailand) was right at 14 days ago (Jan 13th). Wuhan wasn't place on quarantine until Jan 23rd.

There could be hordes of people still walking around in several countries who have no idea they're carrying the virus... meanwhile, they're spreading it everywhere they go.

Actually, I don't know if you can spread the virus while it's still incubating....

 

[Orgasmo]

Yeah... the 14 day incubation period is the kicker. I just rechecked the timelines and the first reported cases outside of China (Thailand) was right at 14 days ago (Jan 13th). Wuhan wasn't place on quarantine until Jan 23rd.

There could be hordes of people still walking around in several countries who have no idea they're carrying the virus... meanwhile, they're spreading it everywhere they go.

Actually, I don't know if you can spread the virus while it's still incubating....

China confirmed that person is infectious during incubation period. This could spread far and wide.

 

[SRN]

My Chinese friend texted me this morning, she wants to have dinner this week but I don't trust that bitch. She's probably contaminated! I blocked her. She's not getting near me or my cats.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

German man who never visited China catches coronavirus through human-to-human transmission

Germany has declared its first confirmed case of the coronavirus after a 33-year-old man contracted it from a colleague visiting his workplace from Shanghai, in one of the first cases of person-to-person transmission outside China.

German car parts supplier Webasto on Tuesday said an employee at its headquarters in Stockdorf, Bavaria, had become infected following the visit of an employee from China.

A day earlier it said an employee from Shanghai tested positive for the virus upon returning to China.

In response to the episode, Germany plans to require travelers arriving from China to provide airlines with contact details, including where they are staying while in the country, Health Minister Jens Spahn said on Tuesday.

Wuhan connection
Zapf said the Chinese woman was from Shanghai but her parents, who are from the Wuhan region, had visited her a few days earlier.