Vertical Fist Nonsense

What's important is to understand how to use the fist to transmit power.
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Winging & wanging with one's fists isn't an effective way to transmit power. It's not even safe witness Tyron Woodley's arthritic ally crippled right hand. No good.<DCWhoa>
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Here comes the end... Lol, Sinister... classic counter of the jab. Actually a different set up Sinister's fighter cleaned clock of his jabbing opponent.
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Dana White all happy whereas before Nunes wasn't entertaining enough for MMA fan base surveys said.
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Nunes not the greatest looking form, yet we see some Striking forum explanations of how this all works.

My advice: Get the basics down then go off on specialized fists like the vertical fist. Cris can get all the boxing advice she wants... her basics sucked wind. And that's a WMMA champion folks.

EDITORIAL QUESTION FOR RAMSEY DEWSEY & STEPHAN KESTING.

Cris trained sparring all thorugh her MMA career, the reality striking arts found in MMA, Stephan. Cris has an extensive resume of FULL CONTACT fights under her belt. Even did what all MMA competitors do an ran to the BIG NAME boxing trainer Jason Parillo who has been helping MMA competitors, unlike that bad karate stylist & kiddie kata.<Dany07>

GUYS. WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED?<{cuts}>
 
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@KarateStylist Well dig around long enough you find info BudoNoah Webpage link....... https://www.karateobsession.com/lineage

Resources..... https://www.karateobsession.com/recommended-resources ;):rolleyes:

As for boxing don't know lots just lots of online links but which one is a good backbone and historically accurate or foundational enough to base opinions or pull knowledge from ? o_O
I don't know about the thumb business, but the vertical fist is anything but nonsense. A lot of Pro Boxers use vertical fist positioning when performing the trip-hammer style jab and with their hooks.
I'll give a brief answer, like Sinister. Don't like Okinawan karate. Okinawan karate is very good if one can do it. It's more sophisticated... which means more principled. Which means more complicated action @ play.

Within that, Isshin Ryu is a specialized Okinawan karate style purportedly created by it's 20th Century Okinawan Master originator to do Guess what:? Make karate better for actual fighting.

The vertical fist, then, is supposedly in line with that goal. I generally use the standard karate fist because the principles behind it make best overall sense.

EDIT: As for karate obsession, it's best to understand fully the principles behind the more basic, standard karate fist before moving on to the vertical fist. Otherwise, it won't work to transmit power the way you want it to. Like Wing Chun and boxing go together - NO.
 
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I can't agree that the horizontal punches don't work without gloves- the Northern Wushu styles, most Karate styles and many of today's self defense system use it for the head.

Why are you posting on 10 year old threads? Do you actually expect someone to reply from a 10 year old thread, why don't you create your own thread.
 
I agree on its defined by "Principles" Karate by design is based on Form, Balance and Center of Gravity.

Where in say Wing Chun by design its based on Centreline Theory.

Then for Boxing by design is based on physical preparation, close quarter techniques and tactics.

However one could argue they overlap and are transferable with modifications.

I don't know enough would need to be a sports science professor holding a Phd and Doctorate to dig deeper into the core and variances.
This is a nice comment. We don't see this thinking in MMA. I'll break it down to make some overall contribution. What's good here, is just as you advocate, you are delving into the nature of the styles and the principles behind them.

Where in say Wing Chun by design its based on Centreline Theory.

The BAsis for TMA
All the TMAs are based off the same fundamental underlying human potentials. Body, mind, spirit. The caveat is that this is all complex compared to boxing, normal Muay Thai practice, etc.

Wing Chun & the Centerline
Wing Chun is very specific about it's centerline theory. This serves multiple purposes. The tactical one most voiced is to protect the vital parts & organs of the body. Wing chun stands square on because it relies on active blocking, striking w countering more than the karates and especially more than boxing. This is one of the reasons Wing chun fails all over YT because the active application of these techniques take a very great measure of mental discipline compared to lesser arts like karate, boxing. IOW, people can't do it.

Traditional Karate & Centerline.
Traditional karate also employs the centerline... but is not so absolute in it's emphasis. The kihon or basic techniques are learned & practiced 1st from the square on horse stance, and the essentially square on lunge stance or front or forward stance. Technique wise, one is at first striking to the centerline just as in Wing Chun. So technically, they both start out the same. Then karate varies off the centerline in application some what more. That variation, however, is still center oriented often times.

Linearity of Strikes.
Both of these tie into the linearity of strikes. The shortest distance between two points, hence inherently quickest & efficient at reaching the target.

TMA Body Mechanics.
Targeting to the center also has important basic structural purposes. This is made very plain by the lunge or front or forward stance in Shotokan, karate generally, & kung fu. TMA body mechanics. These body mechanics directed at the center facilitate the transmission of power. Don't believe it? Just look @ the gifs I posted of the Cyborg strikeout against Nunes. For bottom line practical purposes, useless martial arts striking.

Differences in Body Mechanics.
These body mechanics and the importance of them is made plain & much easier to grasp in a simple karate like Shotokan, with the deeper stances and physical strength utilized in them. In Wing Chun, we are talking great reliance on internal kinds of strength,,, which MMA claims doesn't exist or is a fraud... so now you know why Wing Chun will never ever work for MMA. Ever. Never, ever. However, the conditioning exercises & training in Shotokan, if done mindfully, will also develop strength inside. Not to the same degree as Wing Chun by any means.

I'll post the Taikyoku kata (you know that stupid, baby kata) fo illustrate centerline theory.

EDIT:

Boxing & the Centerline.

Boxing is also centerline oriented, but also non-centerline oriented. My layman understanding of this by Boxing Science is that boxers are primarily interested in landing heavy physical blows to the opponent's body by varying avenues from a fairly standard set of punching strikes. And all quite effective. That's what boxers have always done against me.

Boxing is very mindful of blows coming into the person via centerline. Hence the basic boxing stance is tilted or bladed to reduce striking & aid deflection for defensive purposes all of which makes perfect sense. The hands up guard to protect the head same general reason. All completely thought out boxing science.

p.s. all this about karate is evident in the traditional curriculum as far as karate is concerned.
 
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How to do a Horse Stance and Front Stance in Shotokan Karate
3,951 views


Jason Leung

Published on Dec 11, 2016
Jason Leung demonstrating how to do horse stance (Kiba Dachi) and Front stance (zenkutsu dachi)

As indicated by my prior post, there are many, many principles going on here. Notice the in the initial karate traditional training, the adherence to the centerline in striking.

To switch to the vertical fist question, why would one change from the standard karate fist here, to a vertical fist? What would one expect to accomplish? A lot of factors, multiple & inter-relationships come into play. Now let's go to the Taikyouku kata.

Taikyouku Kata & the Centerline.
Everyone loves (hated by MMA & so-called smart karateka) this. Right.
Taikyoku Shodan Shotokan Karate Kata
540,830 views


Karl-Hans König
Published on Mar 12, 2009

Taikyoku Shodan, performed by Dennis Kipper, 1. Dan, posted by Sensei Karl-Hans König, 7. Dan,Fudokan and 7. Dan Shotokan Shotokan Karate Kata, Shotokan Karate Dojo Maulburg, www.shotokan-karate-dojo.com

There is your centerline theory a la Shotokan karate, with directed movement (change in stance) added as one among multiple principles.

Note the heavy emphasis on physical strength ^ force (potential) which bypasses all those TMA critics calling out tuity fruity martial arts.

Note the drive to the center with the step & lunge or front punch. Consistently, every-time all the time. Refer to prior post for some of the principles. What about the down block. The low block? What the heck is up with that?

Vertical Fist
Would a vertical fist add or detract from this basically principled karate exercise?

Again, all this is present in the Shotokan syllabus. practicing it correctly, that's another matter.
 
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NOW ALL ARE SO EXCITED. Let's go to modern day kumite. Many divergences, but let's focus on what's same on one level, the centerline principle.
Sari (INA) facing Karateka with Highest Rank from Asia, Miyahara Miho (JPN)
72,778 views


OSH TV by Ricky Muchtar
Published on Aug 28, 2018
Srunita Sari (Indonesia) almost won during Kumite -50 Kg Female against the highest rank in Asia Miyahara Miho from Japan.

Note the caption. Miyahara, Japans best almost lost to Srunita. Why? Because TMA and karate aren't some magic you get by attending the dojo. Sari like the heavy hitters in WMMA has all the physical advantages over Miho. I don't want you to look @ the points winner... I want you to look at the knock down (non-scoring) of Srunita by Miyahara @ Time = 2:28 to 2:29.

Miho breaks rules and drops the opponent with a linear reverse punch right up the middle to the head (approximately center ), by leaping quickly in from outside striking range. Shes' using significant forward body momentum, technically not traditional kihon or kumite form. This also makes her vulnerable to counter when shes' too ambitious.

This is all made possible by developing the principles of karate, with application in mind about the modern kumite setting. Centerline theory. All that Twister implicated is involved and more. Miho is a very small girl. With her uniform off, her arms look like it would be all she could do to bake some cupcakes, fold the laundry and then go to bed. What's more, Miho has evidenced that she can knock down many a larger stronger opponent AT WILL during a 2-minute tournament match. So what if she has mostly Silver Medals? MMA can't get anywhere near her p4p strength & dynamic action i neffect.

Vertical Fist?
Why does Miho rely on the standard karate fist to transmit karate power? The answer cycles back to one must understand the entire art.<Arya01>Physical form alone in karate means nothing, in principle.
 
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Speed is a vital element in the execution but it’s developed, speed and driven power is what would cause maximum penetration internal damage, but now we are diverting from the subject or topic because there are a few ways you can hit to cause either external damage or deep internal organ damage depending on intent or purpose of the strike.

Lets just stick to the thread title “VERTICAL FIST NONSENSE”.
You answered your own question. The vertical fist is not nonsense. It's specialized, and relied upon more, in more sophisticated TMAs.

The moral of my posted karate gibberish is, "Can one develop the principles which make it work?" Not lose sight of that and end up like Stephan Kesting and his merry band of Kenpo brawlers.?<NightKingBringIt>
 
i've used the vertical (sun) fist alot in american kenpo. it fits under the contouring principle to make your weapon fit the target. ( example using a vert. fist to strike the sterum vs. using a normal or fore knuckle strike to the throat or palm to the eye socket.
Why are you aiming for the sternum?
 
I don't know enough would need to be a sports science professor holding a Phd and Doctorate to dig deeper into the core and variances.
Twister, your objective for the thread was coming from different purposes than mine. What you are getting at is a technical side which is fine. It's fine to do that.

What is CORE (and then what is not?)?

My objective is / was to place the issue within the context of karate. That's when the vertical fist gains it's power, it's effectiveness. Which cycles back to your objective vs. mine.

It's like Ferguson practicing on the Wing Chum dummy. The techniques may resemble Wing chun, may impart some Wing chun effect... but it's not anything like wing chun for real.

MMA has it's purposes on how it views TMA. It can do that. Nonetheless, that's not TMA.<22>
 
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Why are you posting on 10 year old threads? Do you actually expect someone to reply from a 10 year old thread, why don't you create your own thread.
I was hoping to revive it. :) Man, you are right, but when I make a thread, because there is very old thread on the topic, there are always guys who say- that such thread already exists.
 
I was hoping to revive it. :) Man, you are right, but when I make a thread, because there is very old thread on the topic, there are always guys who say- that such thread already exists.

That's when you reply to these people that the last time it was spoken about was 10 years ago........ And that's why you are making a new one.......
 
OFF TOPIC/

I was hoping to revive it. :) Man, you are right, but when I make a thread, because there is very old thread on the topic, there are always guys who say- that such thread already exists.

+++1 you are right! ;):cool:

I'm with you on this never mind Mr William Huggins you did fine better to keep good threads alive, if they have great content worthy even of a sticky! ;)

That's when you reply to these people that the last time it was spoken about was 10 years ago........ And that's why you are making a new one.......

Nope, "WRONG" thats when you allow others to enjoy the old content, and in many cases there is much to learn from and even add as the discussion already had much to offer with valid points addressed and engage in further. Where the content is informative and factual on topic and still relevant enough to keep it alive! ;)

I never saw the reasoning in telling people to bury great threads that interest many, as thats what a Forum is for with an active "Search Bar"...... https://forums.sherdog.com/search/184905795/?q=threads&o=date

Where even here in this Forum, I have read replies.... "There is a Thread on this instead of creating 1000 threads on the same topic and utilizing bandwidth space", by Moderators! ;)

Besides........ you can always......just...

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Because if you don't like it.............


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That's when you reply to these people that the last time it was spoken about was 10 years ago........ And that's why you are making a new one.......

Next time I will try. Let's hope that this is going to help. :)

OFF TOPIC/



+++1 you are right! ;):cool:

I'm with you on this never mind Mr William Huggins you did fine better to keep good threads alive, if they have great content worthy even of a sticky! ;)



Nope, "WRONG" thats when you allow others to enjoy the old content, and in many cases there is much to learn from and even add as the discussion already had much to offer with valid points addressed and engage in further. Where the content is informative and factual on topic and still relevant enough to keep it alive! ;)

I never saw the reasoning in telling people to bury great threads that interest many, as thats what a Forum is for with an active "Search Bar"...... https://forums.sherdog.com/search/184905795/?q=threads&o=date

Where even here in this Forum, I have read replies.... "There is a Thread on this instead of creating 1000 threads on the same topic and utilizing bandwidth space", by Moderators! ;)

Besides........ you can always......just...

giphy.gif



Because if you don't like it.............


GT6ZgRx.gif

M-m-m-m, another interesting post from you, mate! Very funny with the GIF and the photo. ;) Thanks for the support! You are right- some threads deserve second chance. :)
 
trip-hammer style jab

do you think that jab shortens the reach a bit? This was my main way of jabbing for a long time it was very effective. But I punched like a rockem sockem robot.
 
do you think that jab shortens the reach a bit? This was my main way of jabbing for a long time it was very effective. But I punched like a rockem sockem robot.

Shortens? Well if you have long or short arms you have long or short limbs then they're long or short. Punches are long or short relative to where you are and what you're trying to accomplish
 
Does anyone know why Isshinryu Karate teaches to punch with a vertical fist AND with the thumb on top of the fist. It seems retarded. I took classes in this style when I was in midle school. The kicking techniquies were good because they stressed low kicks and knees, but the punching is crazy. It seems like you would break your thumb.

Does anyone know about this?

http://www.verticalfist.net/#hand


The thumb is placed there (modified by some modern styles) because at the moment of impact it is flexed against the finger and this tenses muscles that stabilize the wrist. This is why many Karate practitioner have never had a rolled wrist in their lives while hitting someone or hitting the heavy bag.
 
The thumb is placed there (modified by some modern styles) because at the moment of impact it is flexed against the finger and this tenses muscles that stabilize the wrist. This is why many Karate practitioner have never had a rolled wrist in their lives while hitting someone or hitting the heavy bag.
You get around.
 
Shortens? Well if you have long or short arms you have long or short limbs then they're long or short. Punches are long or short relative to where you are and what you're trying to accomplish
OMGawd, this is Sinister's sense of humor... run amok...<Rodgers1>
 
Shortens? Well if you have long or short arms you have long or short limbs then they're long or short. Punches are long or short relative to where you are and what you're trying to accomplish

I feel like i get a lot more distance with the way i jab now. With the trip hammer, i wouldnt rotate/extend my arm as much.
 
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